Leading problem in 1954 K38

[Al W.]

Hi folks,
I have a K38 I like to shoot its from 54' and is in fine shape and shoots well when I can keep it from leading up on me.
I've been loading a 148 gr wadcutter about .015 proud of the case with no crimp to speak of over 3gr of Bullseye and a cci primer .
The projectiles are from Precision Delta and are their match lubed bullets as opposed to their lubed offering.
So what's going on is that after 50 rounds I've got leading in the forcing cone area that quickly moves up the barrel once its begun to build. By the time I've shot 100 rounds I'm key holing at 25 yards and can forget about being in the black altogether.
Seems a bit speedy of a build up to me .
I know how to get the lead out. If I take 30 minutes I can get it all sparkling again, got the chore boy wrapped around a brush and go after it , I even lap the barrel with bore paste and Kroil .
It all helps.
I guess my question is ? What am I doing that's leading to the leading ?
I have another revolver I use a model 15 haven't noticed this fast a build up in that gun, but I've mainly been shooting the K38 lately because of the great balance of the 4" barrel.
Anyway , anyone have any thoughts on the matter.
I'm just trying to learn...

 

[jimmyj]

use a different brand 148gr W/C and 2.7grs Bullseye

 

[Al W.]

use a different brand 148gr W/C and 2.7grs Bullseye

Thats a thought that had occurred to me
I had been shooting Hornady and 2.8 gr BE for a couple of years.
Tried to save a few bucks with the P.Delta.
I should compare the hardness .
Should be a fairly obvious comparison.

 

[Nick B]

Try the Zero swaged full wadcutters from Roze Distribution.

 

[Narragansett]

I think you need a harder cast bullet. Sounds like what you are using is on the soft side

 

[6518John]

Al—I addition to the excellent advice above, would order a can of Wipe-Out, plug the barrel of the revolver with some cork, then foam it up with wipe-out for a couple of days. Scrub the excess around the forcing cone with a toothbrush too.

Then use a boresnake to give the bore a good scrubbing. I think you will be amazed on what the wipe-out will do, plus I think it will help keep the bore clean in the future. It sure seems to me lead does not build up nearly as bad when I keep a bore clean and treated with Wipe-out.

Wipe-Out Brushless Bore Cleaner | Sharp Shoot R

 

[442w29]

Did you have the same problem with 2.8 BE and the Hornady bullets, or was that load used in a different gun?

 

[reddogs]

What size bullet are you loading .358 or .359?

 

[Al W.]

Hello
Thanks to all for the replies
I had a quick look at the 3 different projectiles I have used:
In order of hardest to least hard we have Speer at the hardest , Hornady in second place and following up in the rear is Precision Delta.
So for starters the P. Delta is too soft , I was just doing a simple pressure test with a rectangle of tool steel applying hand pressure, but the results were clear Speer, Hornady , P. Delta.
I measured the diameter of the bullets. The Delta were the smallest diameter at .356. The Hornady came in at .357 and the Speer at .357.5.
These all show different readings depending upon where you sit the caliper. The skirt is always widest but a couple of thousandths.
I was at the range to day and ran 48 rounds through the K38 and finally gave up after noticing a marked drop off in performance after about 18 rounds. When I got back to my loading bench I got out my magnifiers and an LED and could see the forcing cone leading and the spread up stream to the muzzle and this after only 48 rounds.
Clearly the Delta are the problem. Undersized and over soft.
I had less difficulty with the Delta when I was loading at 2.7 but there was still leading, just not as bad.
Guess my cost saving measure has been a failure as I now have about a thousand rounds of this Delta laying around.
Curiously I have had far less leading using the same Delta projectile when used in my Model 52 with the flush seated W/C.
It may be that the revolver and its forcing cone are harder on the Delta alloy than the Semi Auto M52 is.
Its interesting stuff.
The 2.8 load with the Hornady and Speer projectiles were not leading to this degree .
My recent leading problem is totally obscuring the lands and grooves of the rifling . Its like your squirting molten lead down range with the purpose of lining the barrel with lead.
Fun with machinery and metallurgy .
There is Wipeout and Zero in my future. So says my crystal ball.

 

[Nick B]

Do you mean .356 diameter on that Delta bullet and not .346 ?

 

[Al W.]

Do you mean .356 diameter on that Delta bullet and not .346 ?

Yes a typo.
I corrected it .
Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[boatbum101]

PD's are usually undersize for S&W revolvers . reason they don't lead as bad in your 52 is because bore is tighter . With a revolver you want bullets sized to cylinder throats ie .358-.359 . Best swaged HBWC you can get is the Remington hands down . I still have a bunch of .451 PD 185 SWC swaged bullets that I only use for 25yd Timed / Rapid fire . Not accurate @ 50yds because they're undersized . The Zero or Magnus swaged HBWC's are better but the Remington is king .

 

[Al W.]

PD's are usually undersize for S&W revolvers . reason they don't lead as bad in your 52 is because bore is tighter . With a revolver you want bullets sized to cylinder throats ie .358-.359 . Best swaged HBWC you can get is the Remington hands down . I still have a bunch of .451 PD 185 SWC swaged bullets that I only use for 25yd Timed / Rapid fire . Not accurate @ 50yds because they're undersized . The Zero or Magnus swaged HBWC's are better but the Remington is king .

Ahh.. Very helpful. That makes sense .Guess I need to shoot the 52 more to use up these PD's !
Meanwhile the Zero seem to be the price point winner.

 

[Nightowl]

Measure the cylinder throats. If they are over size, say .359 or so, that could contribute also. I would think your soft bullets would expand, sealing gases, but maybe not. Also, check the forcing cone of the barrel, it could be undersize, the combination could contribute too. In the old days, the recommendation was to shoot lead bullets .001 or .002 over bore diameter. I have not seen that in print very much in these days of jacketed bullets.

 

[Al W.]

Measure the cylinder throats. If they are over size, say .359 or so, that could contribute also. I would think your soft bullets would expand, sealing gases, but maybe not. Also, check the forcing cone of the barrel, it could be undersize, the combination could contribute too. In the old days, the recommendation was to shoot lead bullets .001 or .002 over bore diameter. I have not seen that in print very much in these days of jacketed bullets.

I've only been reloading for a couple of years.
I was aware of the need to factor those dimensions in but what with everything else being on the learning curve I've just now learned that I need to focus on this if I want to shoot lead or even plated rounds.
I've been loading lots of FMJ for 9's , .380 and PCC 9's .
This HBWC problem with the revolvers took me by surprise .
The Hornady were sized right or at least more correct than the PD projectiles. I think I have enough shop manual data around here to pull the forcing cone spec. out of them. The leading sure is starting there and thats a fact.

 

[Coastie762]

May be a lube issue as well. I've had good luck reducing leading with various commercial lead bullets simply by tumble lubing them in liquid alox.

I've used the PD swaged wadcutters that used their "match lube" in several S&Ws without excessive leading, but that was from a batch I bought "several" years ago. The dry lube on Hornady and Speer swaged bullets are a waxy type, IIRC the PD match lube was much lighter in appearance.

To echo others comments, the most accurate ones I've shot were the Remington HBWCs but with the graphite lube, boy were they messy to load!

 

[Targets Guy]

Look at coating the bore with Strike Hold after a through cleaning.

 

[Al W.]

Thanks to all for the good advice!
Meanwhile , I sent an email to the Precision Delta folks . I received an email from Steve Sanders and he stated that my order number indicated that it was placed at a time that they had an "alloy issue" and that I would be contacted about replacements.
Lo and behold later I received this:

Good Morning Allen,

We apologize for any inconvenience! We are shipping you out two thousand replacement 38-148gr. bullets with the match lube today. We are also not worried about receiving the older bullets back.

We appreciate you being a loyal Precision Delta customer!

Best Regards,

Ginger Stillions
Precision Delta Corp.

So that would explain the leading issue I think...
I really appreciate their response to the issue and I'll give them a close look when they arrive and see what the OD of the projectile is and perceived hardness.
Luckily I haven't loaded hundreds of these soft bullets, well , a couple hundred , but way less then the 2k I ordered and have sitting on the shelves in my shop.
So big props to the folks at PD! I really appreciate their quick response to the issue and their willingness to correct things in a forthright and direct way.
Outstanding customer service !

 

[mmande]

I've been using the 148gn DP HBWC for two years in my 14-2. My measurements show they are .357" diameter. I use 2.8 grains of WST with a Winchester primer. I shoot 60 rounds a week in our bullseye league and clean my gun after every 5 weeks. Very little leading and NO tilted bullet holes.
I have also changed the forcing cone with an 11 degree cutter and polished surface but I did that years ago.
5 stars to DP for standing behind their customer and responding to his situation!
Good shooting;
Mike

 

[Bumpus13]

Thanks to all for the good advice!
Meanwhile , I sent an email to the Precision Delta folks . I received an email from Steve Sanders and he stated that my order number indicated that it was placed at a time that they had an "alloy issue" and that I would be contacted about replacements.
Lo and behold later I received this:

Good Morning Allen,

We apologize for any inconvenience! We are shipping you out two thousand replacement 38-148gr. bullets with the match lube today. We are also not worried about receiving the older bullets back.

We appreciate you being a loyal Precision Delta customer!

Best Regards,

Ginger Stillions
Precision Delta Corp.

So that would explain the leading issue I think...
I really appreciate their response to the issue and I'll give them a close look when they arrive and see what the OD of the projectile is and perceived hardness.
Luckily I haven't loaded hundreds of these soft bullets, well , a couple hundred , but way less then the 2k I ordered and have sitting on the shelves in my shop.
So big props to the folks at PD! I really appreciate their quick response to the issue and their willingness to correct things in a forthright and direct way.
Outstanding customer service !

Always great to hear about a company who stands behind their product like that.