Lee Factory Crimp/Cast Bullet Modification

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SC; The reason for the modification to my die as stated in the first post, was to keep the Lee Factory Crimp Die sizing insert (in the bottom of the die) from sizing down the over bore sized cast bullets that I shoot in my guns. The "crimp" is a seperate issue. As I said in a previous post, .429, or even .430 bullets did not cause a problem in my die, and I am sure they do not cause a problem in yours. Its when I use bullets that are sized larger than .430 (and all of mine are), that the issue arises. The sizing insert in my die would actually size the larger bullets down as the cartridge entered the die...therefore they would not shoot accurately in my guns, because they were undersized (although they didnt start off that way!). I only offered up this remedy for anyone else who may have been having that problem. An easy way to determine this is to seat the bullet in the case and mic the diameter of the case above the bullet seating depth. Then run the bullet into the Lee Crimp Die, remove, and mic the case in the same spot. There should be no reduction in the measurement............Anyway, your crimps (an entirley different subject), look ideal. If they work for you the same way they work for all of the folks that use the Lee Crimper in this manner, I think that you will be very satisfied with the results. Again, as I stated before, you may need to adjust your loads a bit to gain optimum performance and accuracy after changing to this type of crimp. If you choose to continue useing the crimp, I think that you will find, as I have, that your cases will last just as long with the Lee heavy crimp as they did before.

 

[Tell Sackett]

I have to admit something. At the beginning of this thread I was going to go get a LFCD cause I wanted one of them crimps. I didn't have a way to do the ream job myself and with the economy like it is and all, I didn't want to have to spend the money for a machine shop deal, so now I find out I can have it all with the same old die I have had all along!

And some folks say there ain't no Santa! HA!

 

[Skip Sackett]

See, that's just the point, ft. I have shot 44Mag for years and never needed a crimp like this. I will try it now only because I don't have to go get another die, have it reworked to attempt it. The die I have, and many other reloaders already have, will do that kind of crimp quite nicely at no extra cost.

If it were I that wanted a crimp like this, I would go into it with some very simple, and proven knowledge. Worked brass gets harder. Harder brass does not remain as ductile. When harder brass is forced to work past a certain point it splits.

Now, unless you want to take that quantum leap, like the new technology you proved here with this die thingy, and say that worked brass doesn't become harder, you may want to back off your statement concerning the same. Don't make me produce metallurgical reports to prove this issue.

I shoot bigger bullets in all of my 44Mag firearms, as cast, .433" to .431" and don't use a LFCD. It has been correctly stated by you that the LFCD would resize the bullet in the case without the modification you have done, I heartily agree, no argument there. Good work.

Now I know I can get the same results, ,in the 3 calibers mentioned, without spending the money for a LFCD with my standard Lee crimping/seating die that came with my 3 die set AND have no worries with that die trying to resize ANY of the oversize bullets I enjoy shooting.

To me, that is a win/win. It would be a win/win/win if my brass would last as long and would be a win/win/win/win if it improved performance. The last one will need to be verified, the next to last one........................... I just ain't that gullible to believe it will ever happen.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Great pics Skip. Now we know that a "modified FCD" is lurking inside each seating die. All you have to do is turn the die in further. Voila you have a modified FCD and case life reducer in one easy step. Ingenious!!

Jessie,
You crack me up dude!

 

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SC; If the standard Lee seating die applies the crimp, and does not reduce the size of a "fat" bullet...that is good. My post was concerning the seperate Lee Factory Crimping Die. There are many folks that use this die as a seperate step crimp, and do not use any other Lee dies. I do not use Lee dies other than the Lee Factory Crimping Die, and that is what this remedy concerns.....I would guess that anybody that has this issue has a choice...modify the LFCD, or buy a new set of Lee dies to get the factory crimp. As far as the crimp ruining brass, neither I, nor anyone else I know who uses this die has had any problems with that, but, for safety's sake, I do not over extend the use of my cartridge's.............Anyway, keep an open mind....try the crimp, and report your results. It works for many, it should work just as well for you.

 

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Tell; If I only would have known!!!! I bought this die when it first came out, and I dont know how many years ago that was...dont even know if the regular Lee dies could have supplied that same crimp back then, although, I was under the impression that their regular dies did not...but, I may be wrong. Anyway, good for you!!! Many have found this type of crimp to really improve performance and accuracy...but, dont forget to reduce that load a bit and work back up...cant stress that enough.

 

[Skip Sackett]

ft, minds that are too open are usually a sign of something of great value not being up there.

I understand about you not using other Lee dies, they are almost all I have ever used and I've had mine a while.

I do have a LFCD though, 1 cartridge, 45ACP. All of my firearms will work just fine with .452" bullets. When I use too thick of brass, such as Fiocchi, the bullets get sized down to .451". Still fine for the type of loads/alloy used in my firearms.

Your experiences may vary. That is because of the tolerances in things made by man.

As for the cases lasting quite a while, well, that would only mean one thing. They aren't reloaded much. Either they stay loaded a lot or they are tossed after few reloadings.

FWIW

 

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SC; I "try" to be open minded. There is always something to be learned. My daddy used to say that if a day passes, and I havent learned "something", then it has been a day wasted. I try not to waste my days....

Many years ago (almost 50), when I got into shooting/reloading, etc, a fella (who was very old, and very wise) once told me that if I always use Winchester brass in my handguns, and Remington brass in my rifles, that I would never have a problem with brass. I never have questioned what he told me (open mind), and to this day, I still use only those two brands for the purpose....and, I have always had long brass life and no problems!

As far as my shooting habits...most of what I do is experimental, and most of my shooting is done during the winter (I am on the road during the summer working). I dont fire thousands of rounds a year. I was a competitive shooter in National Match Course and Benchrest rifle for most of my life, and I know how to shoot...so, with the range work that I do, mostly on and for guns that I build or work on, getting ready for the hunting seasons, etc, I stay in "practice". I have no reason to shoot anymore than I do. One thing I have learned over the years... its not the amount of shooting that makes one a great shot...you either have it...or you dont......and maybe thats why my brass lasts so long!

 

[Skip Sackett]

Gonna surprise some folks!

So, now if you "have it" not only will you always "have it" but as a side benefit, your brass will last forever?

Of course, you "have it" and have reaped the benefits of that for a long time.

I want to be respectful because if you have been loading for 50 years, you are my senior in age, that is unless you started reloading when you were 3.

But I think you answered the question about brass life. Your shooting habits are much different than most shooters. Surely the 444 nor the 44mag are your benchrest calibers, so what little practice you need to stay at the top of your game isn't done with those calibers, which means you shoot them very little. Now it makes perfect sense.

I load for folks that like to shoot and who hunt a lot. There were 6 rifles afield this this year with ammunition I loaded in 44Mag. If memory serves me, all but two took deer, and one took more than one. The two that didn't take anything didn't see something worth taking.

Some of them get together just to "blast away" with their rifles as they enjoy each other's company, they are mostly related, and like to make things down range move with them.

Not benchrest shooters by any stretch of the imagination and they don't want to be. Just simple folks with simple guns doing simple things and having a ton of fun doing so.

I found this sequence picture that has to deal with seating/crimping that I thought would be helpful.
It is from someone that shoots a lot. He has some really neat articles out too, most of them in Handloader Magazine. It's Brian Pearce.
This is part of his article on setting dies correctly. Notice the bullet type and crimp employed. I found it to be rather interesting.

 

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SC; First you speak of "respect", and then you insinuate that I am "senior".....well, I never!!!!! I will have you know that I am in perfect physical shape, and am still strong and active. I lead a rugged lifestyle, am hard as a rock, and my mind is sharper now than it has ever been! You kids can only hope to be in my shape when you reach my age!

Seriously: You will find that most who have shot competitively have the skills so ingrained, that even after a long layoff from shooting, their proficiency does not falter. I do believe that those on this forum who have been there understand what I am talking about.

As far as brass life...I have never given concern to how long brass lasts. I do keep record of the amount of times that each lot that I have has been loaded. I have one lot of 100 44 mag brass that I have used for heavy bullet (250 to 405), top end loads, and I am getting ready to load that lot up again for testing 405 grain bullets. This will be load # 20. The cases are still in excellent shape, and the crimp that I have shown on this thread has been used on all of those loadings. As I have stated before, I do not anneal cases. I also have one lot of 444 brass that I have used exclusively for my modified COL Marlin 444. All of these loads are at the top end with 300+ grain bullets, and the cases are still in excellent shape after 12 reloadings....I have load #13 ready to go to the range. My other rifles have fitted chambers, so those cartridges will last forever....and have to date! I have some cartridges that I used in my Benchrest rifles that are still as good as the day they were made...after hundreds of firings!!! I have always looked at brass as a "long term" expendable...eventually it will have exceeded its usefulness...then, ya just gotta buy more!

I have taught a number of folks how to reload, but, I have never reloaded for anyone else other than myself....I am just not willing to take on that responsibility....and, it gets more folks into the hobby. I just introduced a fella I work with to reloading, and he loves it. He loads for a 45-70, and 45 ACP. We talk reloading all the time, and of course most everything we talk about is safety oriented.....He uses my three step safety check as he reloads, and he is putting together some very nice and safe rounds to play with. He shot a one hole group at 50 yards with his 45-70 and his own reloads...He was overjoyed to say the least!

The reason I use the crimp I do, is that with the heavier bullet loads (300 and up) in the 44 mag, there have been issues with bullets jumping crimp, and hanging up a cylinder. This crimp eliminates that issue. It has been used by many folks that I know to great success and has become a "standard" for most of us that pursue these types of loads. In the course of testing, it was found that this crimp also improved ballistic uniformity, and accuracy even with lesser loads and bullet weights. I am not saying that everyone should or needs to use this crimp. All I am saying is that I do...others do, and by our shared experiences, this is what we have found. My LFCD is set up for this crimp, it is never changed and I use it on all mid and top end loads that I put together for my 44 mags and 44 Specials. I have found that even lighter loads can benefit from this type of crimp. I dont think that there is a right or wrong crimp...if the crimp one uses works for them, then thats all that matters. Its up to the individual to make that call.

Anyway, before this goes any further, you need to try the crimp, and make the decision for yourself. If it suits your needs, thats great, and if it does not, thats ok too!

 

[Scrapper]

Seems to me when I was around 7 yrs. old I remember my father having some military 30-06 ammo with a crimp much like this lee crimper, of course the primers were also crimped in.

This ammo lasted a really long time, and was very accurate @ 200 yrds. out my 700 BDL) I think mainly cause of the seal provided by those crimps.....maybe another advantage to crimp this way.

 

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Scrapper; I have a faint recollection of something like that, but my memory fails me. I would sure like to see a photo of that crimp if you can find one. It would not only be an interesting piece of history, but just may show the usefullness (and age) of this type of crimp.

 

[Scrapper]

While I don't have a picture my memory does serve me well. I do clearly remember seeing this perfect crimp (not tapered or rolled)but perfectly around the bullet as in a seal of sorts.

I Googled up "30-06 crimped bullet and primer" and came up with some info but not exactly like I remember. I can only safely say they used what ever kind of crimp they could to try and seal the contents of the cartridge from any kind of contamination, like liquid or gases of any kind. While doing so I would imagine they realized they got better and more complete burning of the propellent before the bullet popped from it's seat.

Also these rounds had a red sealant (like Loktite) applied to the primer crimp as well.

When my Father had me reload these the cases he had me do most of the work but could not duplicate the crimp so we did the next best thing and just used what Lyman and RCBS had to offer. He even went as far as to have me seal the primer with red Loktite, LOL. I had fun doing this at the beginning but after hundredsand then thousands of rounds it became boring to me although I did it so I could move on to do my 12 gauge loads for rabbit and pheasant hunting.

I never had a misfire or a hangfire ever. We always hunted in a Bog and rainy situations so he was always training me to make ammo impenetrable to any kind of moisture and he taught me well

He even had had me compressing powder in the cartridge with the bullet. I remeber hearing the crunching sounds it made as I slowly pressed them in while turning the case incrementally if ya know what I mean. His popular loading for it was 180gn Spitzer Boat tail used Hodgden powder and CCI primers. This loading was excellent in the bush as it would maintain a straight path even through thick brush and the side of a tree withing 50 yards.

 

[Skip Sackett]

NEVER?

SC; First you speak of "respect", and then you insinuate that I am "senior".....well, I never!!!!!

Sure you have! I'm not trying to insinuate that you are "senior" as something bad. Are you saying that being considered a senior citizen is bad?

My Grandpa was old too. He used to tell me stories, man could he tell stories. I always respected him and though he is long gone, still do. He knew I respected him too. One thing I didn't do though, and he knew this too, was believed EVERY story he told me!

Seems like a lot of "seasoned" citizens have the same problem!

I can only hope I attain that status, being such a kid and all!


Is being a young person bad?

I can tell you this too. There is one "annually challenged" individual on this forum that I have total respect for their shooting abilities because I have SEEN his handy work. I think he would chime in and say he still practices to keep those skills up. His groups with a 1911 @ 100 yards are totally amazing! Dennis, feel free to join in here!

He just happens to be a former U.S. Marine too!

 

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Scrapper; You got me going...here is a photo I came across, but it is not good quality. The crimp looks close to what you describe, and is close to what we are using. This is ammo from WWII, so, this crimp was even appreciated back then.

 

[Scrapper]

Scrapper; You got me going...here is a photo I came across, but it is not good quality. The crimp looks close to what you describe, and is close to what we are using. This is ammo from WWII, so, this crimp was even appreciated back then.

That's it and ya beat me to it LOL....Awesome work I had at least 10 tabs open and just couldn't find it Dang-it Haha.

I was good at reloading these Cartridges....probably still am 'cause I was basically a factory when I was boy.

This looks like the Lee Crimper here

 

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There ya go! Thats the ticket!!!! Just goes to show that type of crimp has not only been around a while, but, that the Lee crimper is made to apply it! Thanks!!! Enlightening!

 

[Skip Sackett]

Apples to apples! Oranges to oranges! Handgun cartridges to handgun cartridges. Rifle cartridges to rifle cartridges.

They are applied in two completely different means. The rifle factory crimp die, which if you got a 444Marlin one would do the trick on the 44Mag as well (without any modifications), uses a four jawed collet to apply it while the handgun one uses two different angles inside it to apply it.

The rifle one is not designed to resize the case at all.

Apples to apples!

 

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SC; We are talking about the "crimp"...not the "method" of crimping. Your seating die...my LFCD...and the Lee Collet Die for rifles (which I also use) can all apply that same crimp. Look at that perfectly swaged band around the bullet in Scrappers post...no jump, no set back....and perfect ballistic uniformity from round to round (as long as everything else is correct!). I see that crimp on a shooters bullet at the range, and I just have to say to myself..."now that guy knows what he is doing!!!"

 

[Skip Sackett]

ft, between you and me, I don't know who is more "talky". Seems the two of us always have something to say.

I wonder in this little shindig who will have the last word!

Kind of like having a talk with the wife.................Yes, dear!

(I'll bet he has to respond to this too! Seems like I know another fellow on this forum that has the same problem we do!)