Legality of blackjacks

[guitar1580]

Are blackjacks, saps, billy clubs, paddy wackers, and other various lead filled weapons legal to own / carry? I've been told that they are regarded as a firearm when it comes to carrying. I live in WV and haven't seen anything concerning thier legality when I looked it up. I'm not looking to carry one, but if I run across one in a trade, I'd like to make sure it's legal to own.

JP

 

[fdnyretired]

I know they are not legal in NY. That doesn't mean that people don't have them. Check online stores, and they may say "Not legal to ship to..." or "Check local restrictions". I can't speak specificly for WV.

 

[WR Moore]

You may have to look in the definition section of your legal code. Check "weapons" or "deadly weapons".

Weapons prohibitions frequently start out with 19th century boiler plate on "Knives, dirks, daggers, brass knuckles, etc." and expand into "spring knives" and other exotic items of more recent development. Various clubbing tools might not be named, but included by case law. You could contact someone at the office of whatever title the County Prosecutor holds and ask them.

 

[sophie]

Don't think they are legal here.

If you carry a baseball bat in your car here you better have a baseball glove and ball and be ready to play cause their gonna getcha if'n you don't.


_____
James

 

[cmort666]

Purely a state and local matter.

In Chicago, even cops are prohibited from carrying them. The cop who did Federal time for sapping the elderly stabbing victim handcuffed to a wheelchair who spit on him was also dinged by the department for carrying an unauthorized weapon.

Things like blackjacks, asps, etc., are subject to such a plethora of conflicting laws, even in the same state, that you have to know the law WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW, not just state law.

It's mostly a moot point in Ohio. We don't have a "concealed weapons permit". We have a "concealed handgun license" (CHL), and a HANDGUN is ALL it authorizes you to carry. Anything else is subject to local and state law. There's no preemption in Ohio for these items like there is for gun laws.

 

[guitar1580]

I'm not as much wondering about carring them, but wondering if any states prohibit ownership.

JP

 

[sipowicz]

I have my dad's old sap from his Detective days...it looks a lot like the one on the left only the hitting part is smooth leather...we can carry a sap in the LASD, but only the 45 Gonzalez is authorized...which is odd since it is three times the size of my dads and can do a lot of damge...as a reserve, I'm allowed to carry a sap but only on duty...not sure about full timers...

It's called the 415 Gonzalez because a guy named Gonzalez makes them and 415 is radio code for a fight...it weights about 2 pounds.

 

[cmort666]

I'm not as much wondering about carring them, but wondering if any states prohibit ownership.

JP

My point is that even if your STATE doesn't ban them, and you don't CARRY one, you could still be committing a crime by possessing one in your home if your city or county bans them. And that's entirely possible.

 

[guitar1580]

Wow that 415 is a monster. Even a small one is very lethal, but that beast is a leg breaker for sure.

JP

 

[captken]

I can tell you from experience that they aren't worth a flip. When I was a young LEO 30 million years ago, I bought a 10 inch texan lead filled sap to carry in my back pocket on duty. One night my partner and I got into a brawl at a bar and I chased a dirtbag outside that had popped me upside the head as we was cuffing his friend. He was backing away from me when he backed into a tree. He turned his head to see what he backed into and I hit him upside the head with the sap twice. He turned and just looked at me and the fight was on. During the rolling around on the ground fight, he got the sap away from me and took a swing. I caught it with my left hand breaking a finger. I was in the process of unsnapping my service weapon when my partner saw me from across the field and fired a shot in the air. The shot scared the guy and he ran off with my sap. I never bothered to chase him. Never bought or carried another sap. Bought a shock baton after that.

 

[Kavinsky]

yeah I think you'd be better off going with a flashlight that was designed to take that kind of beating as this is strictly ment as something that was ment to given people a beating in the first place and has no other purpose but that and they'd hang you for it.

 

[old bear]

In most areas saps, black jacks. and the like are not legal to carry concealed or not. As for mere ownership that depends on your local laws. If you want one just to have one in a collection how is any L.E.O.going to find out you have it.

Properly used a sap or preferably a black jack should be a fight stopper every time. Just remember if you take a swat at someone with one you are using a dangerous and deadly weapon, so make sue you are justified in doing so. I was trained, years ago, you don't hit a suspect anywhere above the elbow, unless your life is in danger NOW.

 

[Old cop]

I enjoyed the story about the blackjack but have to disagree, with respect. I carried one for years until my agency banned them and it saved my bacon on more than one occassion. It is no longer carried (I'm too old to fight anyone now) but is kept w/my other momentos from my LEO days.

 

[ispcapt]

In Chicago, even cops are prohibited from carrying them. The cop who did Federal time for sapping the elderly stabbing victim handcuffed to a wheelchair who spit on him was also dinged by the department for carrying an unauthorized weapon.

IL LEOs can legally carry saps, blackjacks, etc. 24-2(d) is the statute grants the exception to the UUW statute for LEOs.
"(d) Subsection 24-1(a)(1) does not apply to the purchase, possession or carrying of a black-jack or slung-shot by a peace officer."
You are confusing dept policy with law. 2 completely different issues. While IL law may grant the carrying by LEOs dept policy can prohibit it. However, violating dept policy is not a criminal offense. A person cannot be sent to jail for violating dept policy. They could be disciplined up to termination but it's not a criminal matter. The example you gave has nothing to do with either the statute or violating dept policy but the use of excessive force. A completely different matter entirely and unrelated to the weapon. Violating dept policy is not a federal crime either. What you are describing is a 1983 Civil Rights violation which is a federal crime. The type of weapon used is irrelevant. It's the violation of civil rights by use of excessive force that causes 1983 actions. That could be by hands or other personal object and doesn't matter the type of weapon used.

 

[J. W.]

Are blackjacks, saps, billy clubs, paddy wackers, and other various lead filled weapons legal to own / carry? I've been told that they are regarded as a firearm when it comes to carrying. I live in WV and haven't seen anything concerning thier legality when I looked it up. I'm not looking to carry one, but if I run across one in a trade, I'd like to make sure it's legal to own.

JP

Just skimmed through the state code and it looks to me like the only issue would be with carrying one. Having a collection in your home shouldn't be an issue.


Here's a link to Chapter 61, Article 7 so you can read it for yourself.

West Virginia Code

 

[guitar1580]

Thanks JW.

JP

 

[ASA335]

In my state, they are legal to own, but not carried concealed. It is state by state, and even jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

I personally liked mine, when we were allowed to carry them. I really liked the sap gloves (can't carry them anymore either - Sigh).

Funny though, I'm alowed to carry a mini Monadnock Defender since it is considered an expandable batton; it fits a "sap pocket" pretty well and can be used like a sap.

 

[cmort666]

IL LEOs can legally carry saps, blackjacks, etc. 24-2(d) is the statute grants the exception to the UUW statute for LEOs.
"(d) Subsection 24-1(a)(1) does not apply to the purchase, possession or carrying of a black-jack or slung-shot by a peace officer."
You are confusing dept policy with law. 2 completely different issues. While IL law may grant the carrying by LEOs dept policy can prohibit it. However, violating dept policy is not a criminal offense. A person cannot be sent to jail for violating dept policy. They could be disciplined up to termination but it's not a criminal matter. The example you gave has nothing to do with either the statute or violating dept policy but the use of excessive force. A completely different matter entirely and unrelated to the weapon. Violating dept policy is not a federal crime either. What you are describing is a 1983 Civil Rights violation which is a federal crime. The type of weapon used is irrelevant. It's the violation of civil rights by use of excessive force that causes 1983 actions. That could be by hands or other personal object and doesn't matter the type of weapon used.

Note that I specifically stated that he was "dinged by the DEPARTMENT". The punishment was of an administrative nature, separate from his Federal prosecution for civil rights violations.

 

[jeff22]

blackjacks & saps

I started as a cop in 1981. At that time lot of the older guys around here still carried saps or blackjacks in the sap pocket of their uniform pants and did so until about '84 or '85 when such weapons were specifically prohibited by policy. Most of the guys used them as a backup impact weapon, in case they bailed out of the car in a hurry and forgot their straight baton.

I bought a Bucheimer "Convoy" blackjack and another model with a lighter weight. One of my older mentors who worked for the Sheriff's Department told me to use the lighter one. I carried it as a backup until policy changed. (This same guy had been in a battle with a drunk sometime in the late 70s and ended up hitting the guy along side the head with the edge of a flat sap (by accident) and just about tore the suspect's ear off. No lasting repercussions from that, but he immediately switched to carrying a lighter weight round blackjack with the spring as a result. I saw him break a guy's collar bone with it in the parking lot of a road house one night when we went to a fight at bar time. That fella’ quit fighting immediately . . . )

I still think a lighter weight blackjack may have utility in some applications.

I traded another old timer a black GI wool sweater for his sap gloves. Only used them once, breaking up a fight in a parking lot outside a bar. A strong punch to the sternum stopped a guy who wanted to fight me dead in his tracks. (Which was good, because I'm a big boy and he was about the same size and a lot more muscular (and certainly meaner) and I think I would've been in trouble if he'd have gotten his hands on me or landed a few punches)

 

[captken]

I guess I might need to add to my story that the bar we was in was know for its drugs back in the 70's and the guy was probably loaded with Qualudes. I did carry a 5 cell Kel-light that worked pretty good on ones head when needed but once tied into a guy selling Qualudes out of his vehicle on the side of the road. When the fight started I had him in a headlock with me beating him in the head with the light with no effect. There was so much blood on the ground that one would have through there was a hog being killed. A couple of airmen from Ft Rucker came and helped me hold him down to get the cuffs on him. I still have his mugshot in my scrapbook. He looked a conehead with bandages from the ears up.