Hi, Sipowicz:
The Blackjack on the right is a "Convoy". Yes it is "Effective".
Brings back memories!
Jimmy
The Blackjack on the right is a "Convoy". Yes it is "Effective".
Brings back memories!
Jimmy
Legality of blackjacks
- Thread starter guitar1580
- Start date
I did note what you said. You somehow tried to link dept policy as if that had any relationship to the CR porosecution. Federal prosecution has nothing to do with dept policy. Completely separate issues.
If a LEO is convicted of 1983 action then getting "dinged" by a dept for violating policy is the least of his problems. If he did federal time then violating policy is not even on the scope because he wouldn't be a LEO. What did CPD do? Did they give him a 30 day suspension while he was serving his 3 yrs in fed pen?
Packard
Member
The Barnes and Noble book weights are a thinly disguised leather sap of an older style. Legal in NY but don't try to take it on an airplane. A librarian got taken into custody for carrying on an airline. I don't know the final resolution of that case.
My sister bought me one--she was completely naive and thought it was a good book weight.
See: BARNES & NOBLE | Black Leather Book Weight by Barnes & Noble
My sister bought me one--she was completely naive and thought it was a good book weight.
See: BARNES & NOBLE | Black Leather Book Weight by Barnes & Noble
Mickey D
Member
I have my dad's old sap from his Detective days...it looks a lot like the one on the left only the hitting part is smooth leather...we can carry a sap in the LASD, but only the 45 Gonzalez is authorized...which is odd since it is three times the size of my dads and can do a lot of damge...as a reserve, I'm allowed to carry a sap but only on duty...not sure about full timers...
It's called the 415 Gonzalez because a guy named Gonzalez makes them and 415 is radio code for a fight...it weights about 2 pounds.
Nice looking saps. Always wanted one.
I'm surprised LASD allows to possess, as per 12029 pc they are illegal to possess. No reference to LE exemption.
California Penal Code Section 12029 - California Attorney Resources - California Laws
Ok, I'm a SAP! LE is allowed in CA
http://www.ehow.com/list_7439029_california_s-weapon-laws-batons.html
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cwo4uscgret
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This is my key chain fob; paracord braided over a 2 ounce egg sinker.
I also have a Texan like the one bottom right; and something similar, but not matching one of the smaller ones in the top row:
I also have a Texan like the one bottom right; and something similar, but not matching one of the smaller ones in the top row:
Packard
Member
Make your own sap (perfectly legal until used).
Buy several rolls of Saran Wrap. Start by rolling a piece into the smallest tube you are able. Add more wrap until it is about 1" thick. This makes a perfectly excellent sap. You can peel off the bloody parts after each use and still have a nice clean surface.
This is an amazingly damaging cudgle. You can explain its existence by saying your collect your old Saran Wrap for re-cycling. Indeed, if you pack a lunch you can make yours from the used wrap.
Buy several rolls of Saran Wrap. Start by rolling a piece into the smallest tube you are able. Add more wrap until it is about 1" thick. This makes a perfectly excellent sap. You can peel off the bloody parts after each use and still have a nice clean surface.
This is an amazingly damaging cudgle. You can explain its existence by saying your collect your old Saran Wrap for re-cycling. Indeed, if you pack a lunch you can make yours from the used wrap.
sipowicz
Member
It's okay...you're new here....
As for their effectiveness, saps are mean mothers...I would not want to be hit with one...a shot to the head is coma time...just ask this big brute who didn't want to go quietly with my dad and his partner...
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cmort666
Member
The prosecution was background. In fact, the cop was originally given probation and administrative punishment for the LOCAL violation encompassing the assault. The Federal prosecution took place just as his suspension was expiring (three years, I think).
I'm not surprised that you're confused. Most things relating to law enforcement in Chicago are confusing, even when you KNOW what happened.
Pre-shrunk
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It's okay...you're new here....
As for their effectiveness, saps are mean mothers...I would not want to be hit with one...a shot to the head is coma time...just ask this big brute who didn't want to go quietly with my dad and his partner...
He musta fallen down a flight of stairs.
smokey04
Member
I have carried a beavertail sap and a spring sap in plain clothes but I was never confident in how hard to "slap" and when necessary, only tried to " tap" with the edge of the beavertail.I never tried to hit with a spring sap 'cause I was afraid I might cause a skull fracture.
I was out on a stolen car at Ft.Bliss, TX. one night with a 5 "D" cell flashlight.I had the light on my right shoulder and was illuminating the perps Drivers License when he got "squirrelly" with me and tried to"push me off"[quess who was packing]I snapped my wrist forward and layed that Kel-lite upside the left side of his head. I wasn't trying to crush his skull and thought at the time it was an "attention getting" tap.Well, the knurling and weight of that Kel-lite,[and maybe a little adrenaline] peeled a 3"x 4"patch of his "rug' off to the bone and nearly tore his left ear half off! If you've ever seen a head wound you know how much blood can flow.The "brother' had a very interestning scar to show off when he got to the Ft Leavenworth Confinement Facility. I'm not sure if he, or I,were more scared!I was afraid he was going to bleed to death!
At that time , I finally understood the Military Police doctrine that a night stick is a punching ,thrusting weapon NOT a swinging baseball bat. Nick
I was out on a stolen car at Ft.Bliss, TX. one night with a 5 "D" cell flashlight.I had the light on my right shoulder and was illuminating the perps Drivers License when he got "squirrelly" with me and tried to"push me off"[quess who was packing]I snapped my wrist forward and layed that Kel-lite upside the left side of his head. I wasn't trying to crush his skull and thought at the time it was an "attention getting" tap.Well, the knurling and weight of that Kel-lite,[and maybe a little adrenaline] peeled a 3"x 4"patch of his "rug' off to the bone and nearly tore his left ear half off! If you've ever seen a head wound you know how much blood can flow.The "brother' had a very interestning scar to show off when he got to the Ft Leavenworth Confinement Facility. I'm not sure if he, or I,were more scared!I was afraid he was going to bleed to death!
At that time , I finally understood the Military Police doctrine that a night stick is a punching ,thrusting weapon NOT a swinging baseball bat. Nick
OP
guitar1580
Member
Cwo4usc, that braided paracord looks great. It actually prompted me to look up how to do it. If you don't mind my asking, how did you do the ends of the cord at the sinker end in order to keep it tight? I may just order some cord and try a little braiding. I see lots of uses for that. Thx for sharing.
JP
JP
SrBenelli
Member
I have my dad's old sap from his Detective days...it looks a lot like the one on the left only the hitting part is smooth leather...we can carry a sap in the LASD, but only the 45 Gonzalez is authorized...which is odd since it is three times the size of my dads and can do a lot of damge...as a reserve, I'm allowed to carry a sap but only on duty...not sure about full timers...
It's called the 415 Gonzalez because a guy named Gonzalez makes them and 415 is radio code for a fight...it weights about 2 pounds.
Christ on a cracker! That's not a sap...... that's a baseball bat!!!
When I went to work for a police department in Virginia in the early 80s, while being sized for the uniform, I was asked if I wanted trousers with the blackjack pocket on the left or right side. State troopers had an extra pocket, below a rear pocket opening for their blackjacks.
Even then, the academy had no training program for use of the blackjack or sap. I suspect no LE agencies train their officers to use them these days. Without standards for use of the devices, it's hard to defend them in court.
Even then, the academy had no training program for use of the blackjack or sap. I suspect no LE agencies train their officers to use them these days. Without standards for use of the devices, it's hard to defend them in court.
seagill
US Veteran
In Florida, a CCW allows you to carry billies and knives as well as handguns. I thought about getting one until some LEO's on this forum expressed how deadly they could be.
In boot camp our company commander taught us how to hide a roll of dimes in our dress blue neckerchiefs.
In boot camp our company commander taught us how to hide a roll of dimes in our dress blue neckerchiefs.
Packard
Member
In New York "Deadly force" is defined as anything that is likely to cause a death or permanent disfigurement.Certainly the use of a blackjack would qualify as deadly physical force (in New York--I cannot speak for other jurisdictions).
So the use of an "unlicensed" deadly physical force weapon (the blackjack) would likely get you into more trouble than the legally licensed handgun.
If you need to protect yourself or others then the licensed handgun is the weapon to go for. They both represent "deadly physical force".
I cannot think of a single situation where the civilian use of a sap would be legally acceptable in New York (and probably in other areas too). This would be so even it the ownership of these weapons were legal. I think these fall into the catagory with brass knuckles and switchblades--much more trouble than they are worth.
If the police have any reason to search your home a collection of these weapons could cause you grief (in New York, for sure; in other places maybe).
So the use of an "unlicensed" deadly physical force weapon (the blackjack) would likely get you into more trouble than the legally licensed handgun.
If you need to protect yourself or others then the licensed handgun is the weapon to go for. They both represent "deadly physical force".
I cannot think of a single situation where the civilian use of a sap would be legally acceptable in New York (and probably in other areas too). This would be so even it the ownership of these weapons were legal. I think these fall into the catagory with brass knuckles and switchblades--much more trouble than they are worth.
If the police have any reason to search your home a collection of these weapons could cause you grief (in New York, for sure; in other places maybe).
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Packard
Member
Legally safer is to carry a Mini-Maglight which is a thinly disguised Kubaton, a Japanese striking weapon. There are videos showing the Kubaton Kata, the practicing of which would make you very deadly in hand to hand combat carrying a perfectly legal flashlight.
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