LEO Qualify

Wingmaster

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Gillette Wyoming
I read about leo's qualifying with their service weapons.
I am sure all departments are different but, what do you have to do to qualify?

Wingmaster
 
My department's policy is that we shoot a qualification course with our duty handguns and approved off duty/backup guns three times a year; twice during the day and once at night.

The policy allows several different qualification courses, but typically, it's made up of various number of rounds fired from 25,15,7, and 3 yards. The course is timed and it includes several mandatory and necessary reloads.

Firearms qualifications should never be confused with firearms training, but unfortunately, I know of some departments who consider it the same thing, or worse, they hold annual qualifications but never offer training.

Fortunately, our department offers tactical firearms training on a regular basis, seperate from firearms qualifications.
 
what do you have to do to qualify?

Not much. But then again, firearms use is a very small aspect of what law enforcement is all about. Lack of training in firearms generally comes down to lack of training dollars. Even if there were an increase in training funds, better and more training in emergency vehicle operations would likely benefit police and public alike more than an increase in firearms training.
 
Once a year,
Pistol:30 rounds, timed from 3, 7, and 15 yards. 21 hits somewhere in a full sized torso target.
M4: 30 rounds from 50 yards, no time limit. 21 hits somewhere in a full sized torso target.
Shotgun: 5 rounds #4 buck at 25 yards. One pellet from each round somewhere on the target.

Yet it took some 2 or three tries to pass.
 
We qualify annually with a autoloader or revolver on a combat type pistol course. Thirty rounds from 25, 15, 7 and 3 yard line against two targets The course varies with mandatory reloads and kneeling and command shots to the head. I'm sure there is a name for this course, but I don't know it. Takes an 80% kill score to pass.

We also shoot the Mini 14 and Shotgun. Mini 14 is a twenty round course from 50 to 25 yards with prone and hip shots. Shotgun is similar but ten rounds. Many of the females struggle with the 20" 12 gauge pump. If you fail with the pump, you have to retry and fire another 10 rounds of the buck-shot. 20 rounds is a rough day for a small female.

We used to shoot a 50 round pistol course with 12 rounds, unsuported, from the 25 yard line. It was more difficult.
 
We qualify every Quarter.
It's an all day affair as the rest of the day was either covering policies like use of force/Low light shooting (once every year), or shooting courses such as building clearing or Three gun type affairs.
Firearms we use are standard sidearm, 14" Remington 870, and the M4 platform.
DHS/ICE
 
We qualify once a quarter/4 times per year. 72 rounds ranging from 1.5 to 25 yards (used to be 50 and rumor we may return to the 50) for the handgun. Shotgun, M4 and UMP40 (for those trained on the UMP). Once the quals are out of the way we do a little additional training which may be some BMI stuff or some advanced tactical moving & shooting stuff. This quarter was a Seal ship boarding course using both the M4 and handgun.

Of course the rest of the day is rounded out with policy and the use of force continuum.
 
I worked part time as a sworn deputy and department armorer for 12 years. We qualified one time per year. We used our own ammo as the SD did not supply any duty ammo. Most of the guys were tickled pink if they scored just above the minumum of 70%. Many of them had a hard time making the excessive time limits with their Glocks and Sigs. Two of us still carried our S&W 686s and qualified with the Federal 125 grain SJHP magnum rounds simply because that's what we carried on duty. We got numerous complaints because of the muzzle blast and noise from the guys shooting cheap ammo. But we both always qualified at 100% with our 686 and our back up model 60s. We used the 158 grain SWHP +P in our model 60 back up guns. Now the department isses Glock 22 40 calibers and duty ammo, but during qualification the guys still have to provide their own ammo. Most go to the Wal Mart white box 40s. Still one time per year.
 
At least one firearms session per quarter, but more if you want. Have to shoot primary handgun every time, backups at least once, long guns more often.

We probably burn 250 rounds per agent per session. Handgun, subgun, shotgun, and rifles.

Minimum qualifying score is 80 percent, but most guys would hang their heads in shame with less than a 90 score.
 
Thanks guys. Thats very interesting.
It doesn't sound like its next to impossible to "qualify" and I do agree that limited training dollars are better spent in other areas.
I guess shooting bad guys is a small part of being a cop.
If it were me, firearms training and qualifing would be the funnest part.

Wingmaster
 
Wingmaster,

Would that all shared your enthusiasm. Some officers show up at the range only because they are required too. They take no pride in their shooting abililty, and if not required too before they leave, the instructors know their weapons will not get cleaned until a supervisor tells them to.

A result of this has been the erosion of firearms proficiency standards over the last thirty years. The outfit I worked for used to fire twelve rounds at fifty yards as part of the qualification course. When I retired it was only two at fifty, and those two rounds did not count against the score. For 'reference' only. Only twenty five and closer counts. Now as you see, some agencies don't fire past fifteen yards, and I've heard of some that don't fire past ten.

I also agree there should be mandatory re-qualification for pursuit - high speed driving and self defense/defensive tactics. The former is expensive and hard logistically for most agencies, the latter will get all the fat, lame, and lazy officers' panties in a bunch. The command staff included. And to be honest, there will be some injuries, but those will be off set in the long run when better trained officers get hurt less in actual confrontations. And a lot off officers fail to remember that a part of defensive tactics is training on how to de-escalate a confrontation.

I also believe there should be physical fitness standards and related testing. The standards should be graduated by age, and based on realistic situations. But lets face it ain't going to happen in most places. The officers would gripe, the unions would get involved, and frankly the brass would be terrified they would have to be held to those standards.

But in my mind, if you cant sprint a half block, go over a chain link fence and get to me with enough wind left to help me, just stay in the car. You'll get in my way. Your partners and your citizens are less important to you than food, TV, beer, and thirty minutes a day of your time.

I've now alienated some fellow cops on this board.
 
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You ain't hurting my feelin' 4Js.

At 53 with 27+ on the job, my dress belt is the same one I graduated in and only one notch off the original position. I'm also they guy who torqued off those that don't want to be at the range by being the guy who wanted to keep running through the Seal course transitioning between the M4 and the handgun (I was having a blast).
 
MKT,

I'm 55. It's us old guys that are still enthusiastic and in shape that torque them off the most.
 
I have multiple members of my extended family in law enforcement and hear very similar stories - like qualifying once per year, but no training.

These folks are in a UNION, and I continue to be amazed that their union(s) allow them to be armed and sent out without adequate and ongoing firearms training.

Some of my family members don't even know the model of the gun they carry every day. Just the brand and caliber.

Cripes! Even CPAs are required to get 'continuing education units' (CEUs) to prove they are maintaining proficiency in ACCOUNTING.
 
4Js, you sure as hell didn't hurt my feelings any. I ran qualifications back in the day when revolvers still predominated and being a pistolero was respected. We fired the 72 round qualification course out to 25 with full magnum loads and then shot other drills, often man against man on steel on the timer with handgun and timer. Rain, sleet, and snow. Usually somebody wound up bleeding a little. Fired brass all over the place.

Not much whining, and usually everyone had a hell of a good time. We even got paid for it.
 
It's funny how you can meet different people and form a certain opinion as I am stating below.

I have 4 very good friends who retired as members from the Boston Police Department.:D

They all handle and shoot their weapons at the range very well and do know a lot about firearms.

I guess a plumber wouldn't want to talk about different types of wrenches when his work day is completed.
 
My brother lives in a small town (pop 5000) and owns a Glock .40. He was at the range and was having a difficult time getting a good group. One of the town officers asked him to look it over. The officer made some derogatory remarks about the adjustable sights then aimed the pistol and shot, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. He shot a nice tight group. I understand some officers are excellent shots and a few barely qualify.

I was in a gun store when a female deputy came in and asked for some ammunition (It was not an emergency). She didn't know which caliber.
 
A few years before retirement my entire department was going through 'Active Shooter Response' training at our range facility.
Many of the young guys there in attendance were unknown to me.
The Sergeant that was doing the training was explaining the concept of making entry into the school, mall, etc, to locate wherever the threat was, with the minimal number of first responding officers. (3-4)
He went on to explain that the first ones there MAY not be your 'regular work partners', they may be a mix of beat officers, troopers, deputies, detectives, whatever.
I got a little ego surge when he pointed me out to the young kids and stated - 'You may be lucky enough to get paired up with somebody like Detective H. here'.
Should have seen the looks on the young officers faces.
That was a fond moment to remember.
 
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Annual, or in some cases semi-annual (not sure why, heard lots of excuses) firearms qualifications are what I am going to miss the most. We had the Glock 21's, and our ranges are 1, 3, 7, 15, and 25 although they tried to do away with 25 yards one year, made little difference. The one yard is a strike and step and then the rest vary from there. I agree that once a year firearms training especially for us in Corrections is far too little because we carry ours on transports and doing visitation detail on the weekends in the lobby. I always do pretty well and was even up for becoming an instructor a few years back but in hindsight I am glad I didn't get it. We have quite a few kids that are too eager and some older people who actually hate carrying guns on the job and I am not sure where the safe spot around them is. I know some every year that have to be shown how to load and chamber the Glock properly simply because that's the only real time they ever touch a firearm. I know some who if they wouldn't get fired would not be on that range. There are some if you get there early enough, you stay as far away from them on the firing line as possible. These are the ones after the particular drill is over and raise their hands because the slide locked back or they even have extra rounds left over and don't know what to do next. The last night shoot I was at was a riot, sort of, when after the flashlights were turned off and there was no light at all, one of these wonders let out a barrage of .45 ACP in total darkness simply because they thought that's what they needed to do.
Two of the former instructors of ours are retired now and are friends of mine and they had many issues and used to go to those in charge and tell them the sorry state of things, they got the usual, no money, we weren't carrying all the time every day, at least not the same people. Some officers were not even allowed on transports. I can tell you honestly some I work with should not be anywhere near a gun. It happens, and there is enough blame to go around, the unions don't push for better training, sometimes those in charge don't want to ask for the money, etc. There really is no excuse though.
 
Standard qualification:
60 rounds
3 (12 rounds, 6 strong/6 weak), 7 (12 rounds),15 (18 rounds, 12 standing/6 kneeling), and 25 (18 rounds, 6 strong barricade, 6 weak barricade, 6 over the bench) yards on a TQ-19 target.
Each hit in the gray zone is 5 points, each hit in the black is 2.5 points, any hit not on the target is zero.
Max points=300, 240 to pass (80%)
 
Here's my take on law enforcement training in general. And it hasn't changed all that much in my almost 30 years.

I was lucky enough to have some good trainers in the police academy. I'd never fired a gun before I came on the job. When I was done with the academy, I shot expert with my model 10. I actually beat most of the former army and marine guys and gals. THAT was training, not just qualification. We also had excellent training in driving. We had one course where we actually chased each other. I haven't done that since but it was VERY fun and after I got into a few "real" chases on the job, I realized it had the highest real world to training ratio of any driving training I've had since

Our instructors pushed us to go faster to become familiar with what the '85 Dodge Diplomat could and couldn't do. In training I've had since then, the instructors told me to go easy on them so they wouldn't get car sick.....Hmmm...

As far as training goes now, just about everything I've had after the academy was not training but merely liability documentation. Something they could file away so that they could pull it out for court when you got sued. Let's face it. Training 5 times a year vs. 2 isn't going to make you shoot any better unless you want to. And frankly, police officers have to worry a lot more about shooting DECISIONS than accuracy and ability. Same goes for defensive tactics. Training 5 time a year vs. two isn't going to make you any better in martial arts. I don't like to go to the range for training because the courses of fire aren't really challenging for the most part. It's boring. For some reason I can still out shoot most of the trainers and 90% of the SWAT team and they train a LOT more than me. Natural ability? Maybe? Just better hand-eye coordination?

With training budgets what they are, even if they quadrupled them, you're not going to improve in your shooting skills unless you do it on your own. Same goes for defensive tactics.

And what about report-writing? The ability to know the elements of a crime and put them down on paper in a logical manner that someone can actually follow? I came on the job with a high school diploma but I liked to read, write and argue (as some here can attest). I read reports every day from alleged college graduate/bachelor degree recipients that are just atrocious. They have no idea what constitutes reasonable suspicion vs. probable cause vs. fantasy. Many of them don't even know what constitutes a crime! They know the guy did something wrong but they're not sure what. So they make the arrest and rely on the boss on the desk or the detective to determine what exactly the crime was. The training they get is a note from me, sometimes smart-*** if I think they can handle it, sometimes more gentle if I think they can't and always informative and helpful with constructive criticism and praise for doing the work in the first place. Some of them take it to heart and improve. SOME of the tactical, know-it-all cop queer studs have the attitude that they already know it all because they're in a special unit with three years on the job. Those names generally resurface on use of force and search and seizure issues....If you can't accept advice from someone who has been there already, no amount of training is going to make you a better policeman because there's formal training and then there's real training...

Most of the talk of guns and equipment and tactics are often just mental masturbation for folks who are sometimes so far behind on the basics, it doesn't really matter if they can shoot the bulls eye out of the target...Actually, I guess I have to rephrase that because the targets don't have the same type of scoring rings anymore....Or not the ones I was used to anyway....

And what about realistic training to be able to talk to someone without coming across like an ***? I had some cop who came to my house and got the address wrong who was ready to arrest me because I told him, "Uh, no, you're not coming into my house without a search warrant...."

We've gotten so far away from the basics that cops can't spot criminals anymore without an MDT that can read plates and fingerprints all by itself.

I think a lot of times we confuse the "best trained officer or unit" as nothing more than the "most trained". And equipment? Geez...I was just looking at some old LIFE magazine articles. How did our troops survive in Vietnam with Bulova watches and Raybans instead of tactical watches and glasses? When I came on, I carried a plastic briefcase with a ticket book, clip board, extra rounds and some paper towels to wipe the grease off of the headrest in the car.....Have you seen what some of these guys are carrying now? One guy literally carries a hockey bag full of ****.....

But back on point...police training is primarily litigation support and nothing more. If you want to be good at guns and fighting, you have to do it yourself. If you want to be good at POLICEWORK, you have to find a mentor, sit in on interviews and interrogations, get to know the prosecutor and what they need, learn to talk to whores like they're ministers and ministers like they're whores, accept, if not appreciate people for who they are and what you can learn from them instead of looking down on them based on they way you were raised or your preconceived notions, realize that the jerks you encounter are speaking to uniform and not you personally, learn sincerity and empathy or at least the ability to fake sincerity and empathy really well (either one works).....These are all things that they don't typically train you in. And any cop worth his salt would rather have a fatass partner who is good at these things than some sniper karate expert with a high speed, low drag bag full of goodies. Because formalized police training, while important and necessary for court, is mostly bull**** due to the available quality and quantity of training. The real valuable training that makes you a better policeman isn't something you're going to learn from the various tactical gun writers who are so revered around here.

There, now I'VE alienated some cops!

Oh..and the whole physical fitness thing? It always amazes me that you can have a guy who lives in a $500,000.00 house who justifies buying a new gun every year because he's more afraid of armed robbers in the ghetto than the massive heart attack sneaking up on him because he has 3 whole cheeseburgers sitting in his aorta. I mean...if you really want to increase your chances of "survival".....

Some of my family members don't even know the model of the gun they carry every day. Just the brand and caliber.

I really don't like talking to people about guns at work. The people who ask often already know the answer and are using the question as a conversation starter. I'd much rather talk about cars or dogs or something. Like the other guy says....Do you as a plumber want to sit down and tell someone about your tools or how they can fix their own water heater without paying you? I had a guy with a vest on with Camp Perry patches all over it and some pistol brand hat on ask me what kind of "weapon" I was carrying....I told him it was a Pontiac. He didn't bother me anymore while I flirted with the waitress at lunch....
 
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NIGHT COMBAT TRAINING EXERCISE
OPERATOR INSTRUCTIONS
10 round course of fire

This training exercise is a NIGHT-TIME combat, building on skills learned last year.
Course of fire still involves firing 2 shots each time ARMED suspect target faces officer.
Shooting UNARMED suspect = zero course score.

TURN OFF ALL LIGHTS DOWNRANGE of the firing line

During this trimester – NO SHOOTING BENCHES. All lane bench / shelves must be lowered to vertical storage position in all ranges.

DIM ALL LIGHTS in firing line & operator area to LOWEST LEVEL for monitoring shooters.

SCORE & RECORD EACH/ALL COURSES OF FIRE on scantron cards!
Score target same as qualification, and DOUBLE the final tally to get course score.
Hits in grey area of ARMED suspect = 5 points each,
Hits to ARMED suspect outside grey area = 2 points each,
Miss shots = 2 penalty points each [subtract points]
Add the hit points & subtract the miss penalties, then DOUBLE the resulting number to get course score

Each LASD member MUST shoot TWO courses of fire & have a best score of at least 75 or they must REPEAT the 2 courses of fire.

Personnel MUST draw from HOLSTER and MUST use a LIGHT during this exercise

Post LARGE COMBAT [13"X23"] target with UNARMED suspect facing shooter to start course
· Direct shooter to load 10 rds in 1 mag, and have 2nd empty mag immediately available
Note: guns with low-cap mags should load 6 rds in one mag & 4 rds in second mag, and have 3rd empty mag immediately available
· Direct shooter to load and chamber, and safely holster a loaded pistol.
· During this exercise the shooters must:
Draw pistol from holster AFTER TARGET BEGINS TO MOVE downrange

Use a flashlight or gunlight to see targets while shooting course

Fire only 2 shots each time ARMED SUSPECT target faces as immediate threat

RELOAD pistol while holding flashlight at end of course (using empty magazine)

COVER the suspect while using a light & watching for secondary threats


We have to qual 3 times a year. The other two times are 2 mags (20 rounds) without flashlights.
 
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