Less-lethal Ammo

ou1954

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In reading about the serious damage caused by the ammo used in the Las Vegas mass shooting, the issue of finding ammo that would provide a reasonable level of self protection came to mind.

When I was still in California I only owned, on a full-time basis, some .22 rifles. One was a Remington Fieldmaster pump and I bought .22 ammo with pellets instead of a slug. Made sense to me because I didn't need to be concerned about what it would take to cycle the rounds.

When we returned to Oklahoma I sold the rifles and now own an SD9VE and a .22 1911 replica (a nostalgia purchase). [No longer interested in hunting, no need for rifles.]

One pistol relies on recoil, the other on blowback, and this forum seems to say that there are some minimum loads to cycle these weapons.

I just had a look for less-lethal ammo and found a lot of shotgun shells and rubber bullets.

Does anyone know of a 9mm round that would provide self-protection without totally destroying someone?

I tend to believe, however, that the FBI tests in ballistic gel show that hollow-point ammo is appropriate. Maybe this is a lost-cause search.
 
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Does anyone know of a 9mm round that would provide self-protection without totally destroying someone?

9 mm bullets do not "totally destroy" people, unless maybe you empty several dozen magazines into them. There is no less lethal handgun round that still provides rapid incapacitation, what you are asking for is physically impossible.

My suggestion would be to carry pepper spray as a less lethal option in addition to a 9 mm load with a strong track record in defensive shootings.
 
In a SD situation the #1 goal is to eliminate the threat by incapacitating the assailant as quickly as possible before they can do harm.

Ammunition specifically intended to be non-lethal is inherently counter-productive to that goal. Even the best self defense ammo does not guarantee an immediate stop of the assailant unless you can make a central nervous system shot.

The only kind of gun I know of that is non-lethal but incapacitating is a dart-style taser, and they have very limited range plus they can be defeated by a heavy leather jacket.

Rubber bullets and bean-bag rounds are only semi-effective and only when fired from a firearm with a large enough bore for the projectile to have enough mass to knock the attacker down. That means a shotgun. Not a very practical weapon to carry for self defense.

Non-lethal self defense weapons are a nice idea, but until someone invents a Star Trek beam-type phaser that has "stun" capability, it is just that - a nice (but impractical) idea.
 
This is a very interesting subject to me. I’ve done a lot of Googling and haven’t been able to find a really good solution. I did find one place which sells several different kinds of less than lethal pistol ammo. For at least .380 ammo - he/they sell a sport load and a defense load. I ordered 10 rounds of the sport load and have only fired one round so far. Bullets appear to be some kind of proprietary mix of wax and plastic. Occasionally, I carry my Glock 42 on evening walks and the first round up in it is one of these rubber bullet loads. I carry it that way because, in my assessment, the most likely scenario would be encountering an attacking dog - and hopefully the rubber bullet would scare or chase them off. If it didn’t, then I could rack the slide and the next one would be real. I hope none of the Tactical Ted’s see this post – otherwise I’m sure I will be subject to a rash of ridicule and condemnation ... :(. I have the good fortune to live in a gated community within a larger, and very safe, area.

Edited to add: search for Concepts in Ammunition if you are interested – I have no affiliation with the company.
 
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This is a very interesting subject to me. I’ve done a lot of Googling and haven’t been able to find a really good solution. I did find one place which sells several different kinds of less than lethal pistol ammo. For at least .380 ammo - he/they sell a sport load and a defense load. I ordered 10 rounds of the sport load and have only fired one round so far. Bullets appear to be some kind of proprietary mix of wax and plastic. Occasionally, I carry my Glock 42 on evening walks and the first round up in it is one of these rubber bullet loads. I carry it that way because, in my assessment, the most likely scenario would be encountering an attacking dog - and hopefully the rubber bullet would scare or chase them off. If it didn’t, then I could rack the slide and the next one would be real. I hope none of the “Tactical Ted’s” see this post – otherwise I’m sure I will be subject to a rash of ridicule ... :(. I have the good fortune to live in a gated community within a larger, and very safe, area.

Edited to add: search for Concepts in Ammunition if you are interested – I have no affiliation with the company.

It's your life and your right to carry what you want, but I would not want anything that is guaranteed to jam on the first shot. If you get ambushed and your rubber bullet doesn't incapacitate the bad guy, what makes you think you'll have time to rack the slide? If I had to carry something like that I would at least load it into a revolver so I could pull the trigger again.

I don't consider myself a Tactical Ted but I've watched a few assaults on YouTube and there's usually not a lot of time to manipulate a pistol. How easily can you rack your Glock one handed?
 
Less than lethal

9 mm bullets do not "totally destroy" people, unless maybe you empty several dozen magazines into them. There is no less lethal handgun round that still provides rapid incapacitation, what you are asking for is physically impossible.

<snip>

I may be overkilling an underkill issue. I guess I reacted to some of the doctors comments in Vegas about cavitation in the victims bodies. I don't know the velocity of the rounds shot in Vegas but did measure the distance, which is 1,000' minimum. (actually 1,172 minimum on Google earth)

I've looked at videos of ballistic gel shots which usually reference some FBI standard. In those shots there isn't much fragmentation, but usually good expansion.

My conclusion is to carry a standard hollow point. I am not an EDC person and live in a very safe area. I have a concealed carry permit and tuck the SD in the car on trips to, or through, troubled areas.

I appreciate all the constructive answers and will look at any which follow.

I do have a Las Vegas story, not exactly gun related. I used to have medical practice (software) accounts in Vegas and one night I was left alone in a large radiology facility. Late one night I picked the wrong exit, used the wrong code, and bought the police. Luckily one of the owners showed up just after the police stopped me at gunpoint.
 
Does anyone know of a 9mm round that would provide self-protection without totally destroying someone?

There is no way I can say this without sounding harsh, and such is not my intent, but I think you need to step back and ask yourself if you are mentally and/or emotionally prepared to use a gun for self defense. In order to shoot someone, you must feel that your life is in danger, or the lives of your loved ones, and you should be prepared to end the threat. Trying to wound someone will more than likely result in your own death or that of the ones you seek to protect. Unless you are an expert marksman and extremely cool under stress and pressure, it's very difficult to hit someone in a non-lethal point...and it's not a given that any wound is non-lethal. Hit someone's femoral artery, and they could bleed out in a very short time. Or the wound could not stop them at all...and they would be in your face, shoot you, etc. You don't have to use excessive force, either...once someone is down and not posing an immediate threat, it would be wrong to keep shooting them. The whole point is to eliminate the threat, but in order to do that, you need to be prepared to shoot to kill.

Then there is the legal consideration...if you don't feel sufficiently threatened to shoot to kill, you might have to answer for why you shot someone in the first place, and be liable for damages, medical costs, etc. if they survived...especially depending on the laws of your state.

If you can't mentally and emotionally face the possibility of shooting someone in self-defense, to the point that you want a non-lethal round, then a gun isn't for you (except for recreation like target shooting.) I'm not criticizing you...there are a lot of people who feel that way. There have been LEOs who found out after a shooting in the line of duty that they never wanted to do it again, so it's not just civilians.
 
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I know that they have used....

They have used rubber bullets and beanbags in the past and probably still would in an appropriate situation. But if I remember right, some deaths were caused by rounds hitting the heart area. It seems the effectiveness vs the risk isn't all that great.
 
In reading about the serious damage caused by the ammo used in the Las Vegas mass shooting, the issue of finding ammo that would provide a reasonable level of self protection came to mind.../ /...

You do realize of course that the Las Vegas shootings were done at a range of about 400 yards, and using high velocity rifle rounds, right?

If you put the two together, you are in essentially then asking about less lethal rifle rounds. The answer to that came with the Hague conventions in 1899 and 1907, where article IV section 3 stated:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

This essentially banned soft point and 'dum-dum' bullets from use in warfare - at least between signatory countries.

On the other hand, the countries involved almost immediately started exploring the phenomenon of high velocity rifle bullets tumbling on impact to improve terminal effectiveness. The British in particular found .276" (land diameter, .284" groove diameter) to be ideal in this regard in a full power battle rifle cartridge and were planning to adopt a .276" cartridge in the Pattern 13 Enfield when WWI broke out and scuttled that plan. After WWI, they had too much .303 ammunition and too many .303 caliber SMLEs (along with a bunch of .303 chambered Pattern 14 Enfields) in the inventory to even consider a switch. After WWII they proposed two intermediate cartridges in .276 caliber - the .276 British and the compromise .276/30, which could be produced on tooling designed for the .30-06, for use as the standard NATO cartridge.

In the early 1960s the US developed the 5.56mm M193 ball round which was specifically designed to tumble and fragment, greatly increasing it's terminal effectiveness - and pretty much flying entirely in the face of the Hague conventions, without actually violating them.

-----

On the civilian side of the house, if you eliminate soft point ammunition you will greatly decrease the lethality of the ammunition. However, that is a bad thing as it also means that you'll make it much more difficult to get clean and humane kills on game animals. In shot, you'd be degrading the primary and normal function of hunting ammunition just to reduce the damage caused in the extremely rare instances when a psycho with a long gun shoots people.

I just had a look for less-lethal ammo and found a lot of shotgun shells and rubber bullets.

The problem with these less lethal rounds is exactly that - they are only less lethal. Hit someone in the head with a large rubber bullet from a shotgun and they are very likely to be just as dead as if you shot them with an actual lead bullet - or just as brain damaged, which can be worse from a civil liability perspective.

Way back in the day there was a school of thought in law enforcement of "shooting to wound" as a means to reduce the lethality of officer involved shoots. However, in practice the result was that officers shot more frequently, with less provocation, and in the long run killed more suspects. The end result was going back to a "shoot center of mass" philosophy, with an intent to rapidly incapacitate an assailant - and because lethal force was being used, to only shoot when absolutely necessary. The war on drugs and the promotion of threats to officers lives as justification to shoot when a minimum legal justification is present (rather than only when absolutely necessary) has distorted this a bit, but the pendulum is starting to swing back to a less extreme position.


Does anyone know of a 9mm round that would provide self-protection without totally destroying someone?

I tend to believe, however, that the FBI tests in ballistic gel show that hollow-point ammo is appropriate. Maybe this is a lost-cause search.

In terms of handgun and self defense ammunition, hollow points improve the odds of stopping an assailant in the minimum number of shots. In fact, using less lethal FMJ ammunition would more often than not result in more hits being needed to stop an assailant and the increased number of wound tracks would actually increase lethality.

A trauma surgeon I used to consult with (who had experience with about 1500 gun shot wounds) indicated that the more times a person was shot, the more wound tracks were created, and the more organs and systems were potentially damaged, with each wound track making it much harder for a surgeon to repair all the cumulative damage.

For example if you have a .22 LR pistol with 10 rounds, you would probably find yourself having to put all 10 into the assailant in hopes of stopping him, and you probably wouldn't be successful doing that with shots to his torso. The limited penetration and small wound tracks would limit immediate blood loss, and thus not get rapid incapacitation. However those 10 wound tracks would create enough cumulative damage that the assailant would be very likely to die hours or days later.

In short, well placed hollow points both stop assailants and save not just police officer lives but also the lives of assailants who end up being shot fewer times.

Hollow points also reduce the risk of over penetration where an over penetrating round may hit an innocent bystander. Give the 20 or so percentage hit rate for officer involved shoots, it's arguable about whether reducing over penetration matters when 8 out of 10 rounds are misses that skip all over the neighborhood anyway.

However for an armed citizen who holds full civil and criminal liability for each round fired, avoiding over penetration is something you should be concerned about, and hollow points are your best method of doing that in an effective self defense caliber.
 
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Hi OU1954, this is your friend the Oklahoma physicist.
Your premise that your 9mm is comparable to the machine gun/ rifle ammunition (5.56 mm NATO) used by the Las Vegas murderer is embarrassingly naïve.
The rifle bullet goes about 3 times as fast and has many times the energy and destructive effect. (Energy is proportional to the square of speed)


Simply by using a 9mm handgun, you already have chosen a less lethal weapon and ammunition (but much more practical to carry for defense).
Suggest you rent a rifle at the OKC range and witness the difference.
 
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In reading about the serious damage caused by the ammo used in the Las Vegas mass shooting, the issue of finding ammo that would provide a reasonable level of self protection came to mind.

When I was still in California I only owned, on a full-time basis, some .22 rifles. One was a Remington Fieldmaster pump and I bought .22 ammo with pellets instead of a slug. Made sense to me because I didn't need to be concerned about what it would take to cycle the rounds.

When we returned to Oklahoma I sold the rifles and now own an SD9VE and a .22 1911 replica (a nostalgia purchase). [No longer interested in hunting, no need for rifles.]

One pistol relies on recoil, the other on blowback, and this forum seems to say that there are some minimum loads to cycle these weapons.

I just had a look for less-lethal ammo and found a lot of shotgun shells and rubber bullets.

Does anyone know of a 9mm round that would provide self-protection without totally destroying someone?

I tend to believe, however, that the FBI tests in ballistic gel show that hollow-point ammo is appropriate. Maybe this is a lost-cause search.
I can kind of understand you, kind of, I have come to wonder if an old white man would not be better off if he is able to defend himself without killing the attacker :confused:
That said you have to also assume that most attackers today are going to be armed, most likely with a stolen G19 w/17 rounds.
If I were you I would look into a 380 with FMJ I most of the time carry a LCP II w/ HST.
You could also look at the 'judge' a revolver that shoots 410 shotgun shells & load it with bird shot. :rolleyes:
 
I may be overkilling an underkill issue. I guess I reacted to some of the doctors comments in Vegas about cavitation in the victims bodies. I don't know the velocity of the rounds shot in Vegas but did measure the distance, which is 1,000' minimum. (actually 1,172 minimum on Google earth)

I've looked at videos of ballistic gel shots which usually reference some FBI standard. In those shots there isn't much fragmentation, but usually good expansion.

My conclusion is to carry a standard hollow point. I am not an EDC person and live in a very safe area. I have a concealed carry permit and tuck the SD in the car on trips to, or through, troubled areas.

I appreciate all the constructive answers and will look at any which follow.

I do have a Las Vegas story, not exactly gun related. I used to have medical practice (software) accounts in Vegas and one night I was left alone in a large radiology facility. Late one night I picked the wrong exit, used the wrong code, and bought the police. Luckily one of the owners showed up just after the police stopped me at gunpoint.

The doctors in Vegas typically see handgun wounds not rifle wounds.

There's no such thing as overkill. It either kills or it it doesn't. The point of self defense is NOT to kill but to stop the threat in the fastest way possible. Good quality hollow points do that (yes nothing is 100% guaranteed)

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
Mass, Velocity, Energy

Hi OU1954, this is your friend the Oklahoma physicist.

Your premise that your 9mm is comparable to the machine gun/ rifle ammunition (5.56 mm NATO) used by the Las Vegas murderer is embarrassingly naïve.

The rifle bullet goes about 3 times as fast and has many times the energy and destructive effect. (Energy is proportional to the square of speed)

Simply by using a 9mm handgun, you already have chosen a less lethal weapon and ammunition (but much more practical to carry for defense).

Suggest you rent a rifle at the OKC range and witness the difference.

I re-read one post where I seem to conflate the destructive power of a 9mm hand gun with the destructive power of the Las Vegas rifle after a ~1,000 ' flight. That was poorly written and I apologize.

I'm now 85 years old and owned rifles from the age of 12 or so, in Oklahoma. I graduated from Oklahoma University, BS Engineering Physics in 1954 and then served in the Navy in the Pacific, serving as Electronics and ASW Officer on a destroyer and was OOD underway at night. After release from the Navy I went into Missile tracking systems design and ultimately into high energy capacitor discharge systems.

Along the way I got my MS in engineering from UCLA (1962) and the thesis got me invited to work for the Dutch Government in The Netherlands. I then returned to California and returned to aerospace until I started a Computer systems house.

I have presented scientific papers at several venues in the United States, a NATO Conference in London, and in Paris, Leiden, and Japan.

I eventually retired and returned to my home state of Oklahoma in 2007. I consulted here for 4-5 years but am now fully retired.

So, end result is that I can actually deal with Mass, Velocity, and Energy.
 
Hollow Point

-----
<snip>

On the civilian side of the house, if you eliminate soft point ammunition you will greatly decrease the lethality of the ammunition. However, that is a bad thing as it also means that you'll make it much more difficult to get clean and humane kills on game animals. In shot, you'd be degrading the primary and normal function of hunting ammunition just to reduce the damage caused in the extremely rare instances when a psycho with a long gun shoots people.

<snip>

Just commenting on that . . . I worked one summer during High School in Texas, Odessa specifically. It was in an oil field machine shop owned by the father of a former Oklahoma buddy.

We had the opportunity to go jack rabbit hunting a few times, actually something desired at that time.

I remember the first time out . . . we were sure we had hit a rabbit but he kept on running. We drove back to town and bought .22 LR Hollow point.

Result . . . one shot kills.
 
So, end result is that I can actually deal with Mass, Velocity, and Energy.

I think, sir, that this has proven to be a pretty civil forum over the 18 years or so I have been a member. That said, there are some members who are convinced they know everything, and a few of them have a tendency to talk "down" to other members. As you have seen, if someone does not use razor-accurate language or terminology, then comments of this sort can bring out the worst from those commenters. And, many times their comments will not be kind or gentle. Most members will make civil and respectful comments - others, not so much. I have seen occasions, in other threads in the past, where the less-than-civil commenters wind up getting a thread closed/locked by the moderators because of name-calling and other such activity. As I stated in my first post, you brought up a subject about which I am very interested. With all of this said, I am still researching less-than-lethal rounds. As mentioned above, I have the good fortune to live in a low-threat environment - but I am concerned about the potential for an encounter with an aggressive and/or dangerous dog. I do think - and I could well be wrong - that using a less-lethal round would cause fewer problems with both the homeowners association and law enforcement. It may work out that I wind up buying something along the lines of a Taser pistol. Having accumulated a wee bit of wisdom these past seven decades, I am not so paranoid as to think that I need a Glock 17 and four mags every time I step out of the house!
 
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