Less-lethal Ammo

[Kiwi cop]

It is not the projectile that caused the most trauma when shot, given one that holds together well. It is the hydrostatic shock of something travelling at a relatively high velocity through muscle and tissue that is composed of a lot of fluid. This fluid (blood, water etc) cannot compress and goes on to cause further tissue damage. That is why the "tumbling" rifle bullets caused so much damage to the victims.

In the case of frangible rounds the kinetic energy is dumped into tissue rather quickly, and the resulting fragments do tear tissue and blood vessels, which leads to more extensive wounds and why there has been a movement to ban frangible projectiles in some places.

Personally, if it is necessary to shoot someone it is not to either kill or wound, it is to stop them inflicting death or grevious bodily harm on either yourself and another and under circumstances where no less level of force will achieve this.

If you feel you need a less than lethal option then as said above, carry some pepper spray. Otherwise select a decent projectile (what your local law enforcement department carry is ideal) and rely on "stopping" any offender with the least number of rounds of required and in the shortest possible time.

Oh, andvthrough experince pepper spray really works well on aggressive dogs. I once executed a search warrant when the offender was not home and had to spray a dog inside before I could get through an open window. When I had to go back post arrest to collect items we had not known were stolen the dog appeared again but ran as soon as I presented the can of spray.

 

[OKFC05]

"but I am concerned about the potential for an encounter with an aggressive and/or dangerous dog."
ZAP CANE
My stun gun in a cane is very effective in deterring dogs just by the sound of triggering it. Anywhere stun guns are legal.
https://www.brickhousesecurity.com/product/zap+cane.do

 

[ou1954]

Slingshot

With all due respect get a slingshot

What kind of projectile do you use?

 

[lonestar outlaw]

What kind of projectile do you use?

small ball bearings or bb's and I have used # 6 birdshot
seems to really ruin their day but non lethal

 

[iPac]

small ball bearings or bb's and I have used # 6 birdshot
seems to really ruin their day but non lethal

Just don't aim at birds, cause it will be lethal then.

I wish I knew where my two slingshots were. Haven't had them since high school.

 

[lonestar outlaw]

I don't shoot birds my friend

 

[lonestar outlaw]

I have been playing with slingshots for the last few years
I bought one at a gun show several years ago
As a kid we made our own with them carved out of hickory or oak
we used old bike or car inner tubes and they work pretty well
brings back a lot of memories when I was a kid
what about you

 

[ou1954]

Slingshots and more [I hope less]

I have been playing with slingshots for the last few years. I bought one at a gun show several years ago.
As a kid we made our own with them carved out of hickory or oak.

We used old bike or car inner tubes and they work pretty well
brings back a lot of memories when I was a kid.

What about you?

I suspect most folks here who are over 40 have been through the slingshot, rubber band gun, and BB gun phases. I have . . . finishing with a .22 rifle.

What I hope for now is an end to discussion about weapons outside this forum.

The opening post was a question within the definition of the forum. It has expanded to shotguns, slingshots, Mace, Tasers, electronic canes, and more.

If anyone had suggestions within the range of SD, Sigma, etc., I, and many other folks would welcome them. I hope off-topic comments will be posted on a more appropriate forum.

[Lonestar Outlaw - Not singling you out, I just needed something to link to. I have seen the ads for new-style factory-made slingshots, and was tempted. I'll stay with the Y from a tree. ]

 

[GKC]

What I hope for now is an end to discussion about weapons outside this forum.

You've been a member here for almost three years now...plenty of time to learn that ain't gonna happen.

As for your private message, I don't carry 24/7. There are times at home when I don't have a gun on me (especially when in the shower, swimming, etc.) There are times when I can't legally carry (like when I take my wife to the doctor) or any place else prohibited by law. (In those cases, I lock my gun in a safe in the car.)

As for any circumstance when I've had to use a gun for self or home defense, no. I have owned guns since 1973, except for a few years along the way, and there have been a couple of times that I certainly wished I had a gun when I didn't, but fortunately the incidents didn't result in serious injury. (I was beaten up pretty badly in a mugging, which I think would have gone differently had I been carrying at the time.) I do not and will not look for trouble, but if trouble comes I want to be able to defend myself and my loved ones to the best of my ability.

To which point, I'll answer a question I asked you. I have never shot a human being, and unless and until I do (which I pray is never necessary) I won't know for certain how I will feel about it. However, to the best of my knowledge now, if I feel that my life or the lives of my loved ones are in danger, I am mentally and emotionally prepared to end that threat. The point is not to intend to kill, and certainly not to WANT to kill, but the point is being prepared to do that to end the threat if that is what is necessary. Trying to find non-lethal rounds or trying to aim for non-lethal wound points is, in my opinion, to avoid the right state of mind to have a gun. Again, no one should intend or want to kill, but to be prepared to do so to end a threat...and when you are at the point of needing to use a gun, that is the most extreme situation, and non-lethal options almost certainly don't exist at that point.

 

[ou1954]

Ken (GKZ) - You are probably right about not being able to focus this forum thread on "less lethal" use of the SD/Sigma firearms.

As you say, "that ain't gonna happen."

I would suggest, however, that weapon use would fit better in the "Concealed Carry and Self Defense" forum.

 

[micocyco]

Ken (GKZ) - You are probably right about not being able to focus this forum thread on "less lethal" use of the SD/Sigma firearms.

As you say, "that ain't gonna happen."

I would suggest, however, that weapon use would fit better in the "Concealed Carry and Self Defense" forum.

I would suggest if you are not prepared to take a life in selfdefense then you should not carry a deadly weapon.
As far as I know there is no "less lethal" center fire cartridge for 380, 9mm, 40S&W, 45acp or 10mm that is not deadly & I am sure that covers all SD & Sigma pistols. So then that ' for me ' ends your limited discussion.

 

[micocyco]

OK I lied , one more post , this is way out side your parameters , but I don't know if you are serious or just want to complain, so here is your weapon & yes it is not a SD or Sigma . [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqJAfE90V1k[/ame]

 

[sigp220.45]

I worked one shooting where the guy used less-lethal ammo. He was getting thumped on a regular basis by his much larger brother-in-law, and finally reached his getting-thumped limit. He loaded up his Rossi .38 with factory shotloads and let his tormentor have one right in his fat thigh. It most definitely worked - the BIL howled like a werewolf and carried himself to the ER.

My partner actually got the case, I just went along to help. It looked like self-defense to me - there was a large disparity in size and the shooter obviously took pains to not kill Gigantor. My partner was of the opinion that all shootings should be charged and got an indictment for attempted murder, at which time the shooter killed himself with a .22 rifle he had stashed in his barn.

In that instance at least the round worked, even if the system didn't.

 

[GKC]

My partner was of the opinion that all shootings should be charged and got an indictment for attempted murder, at which time the shooter killed himself with a .22 rifle he had stashed in his barn.

Hence the saying, "Better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6." Except in this case, the shooter got both results.

 

[ou1954]

Well, I didn't see any postings which specifically respond to the original question which was about selection of 9mm ammo but see several comments which were helpful.

During this week I did talk to a couple of law enforcement guys, one local and one state. I talked to the local LEO guy who lives in this development and also got a look at the tires on his car, which are indeed larger than standard. I thought they would be but he hadn't noticed.

I also ran into the state guy who was checking in with me at the same medical office. He was carrying a Glock, (I could tell by looking at the bottom of the magazine) not sure what model, and I didn't want to ask. He did show me how his holster worked . . . no latch or catch, just tilt it back to release.

[Just for reference, here is a part of my original post. "I tend to believe, however, that the FBI tests in ballistic gel show that hollow-point ammo is appropriate. Maybe this is a lost-cause search."]

Thanks to everyone who tried to help.

 

[Muss Muggins]

No . . . .

In reading about the serious damage caused by the ammo used in the Las Vegas mass shooting, the issue of finding ammo that would provide a reasonable level of self protection came to mind.

When I was still in California I only owned, on a full-time basis, some .22 rifles. One was a Remington Fieldmaster pump and I bought .22 ammo with pellets instead of a slug. Made sense to me because I didn't need to be concerned about what it would take to cycle the rounds.

When we returned to Oklahoma I sold the rifles and now own an SD9VE and a .22 1911 replica (a nostalgia purchase). [No longer interested in hunting, no need for rifles.]

One pistol relies on recoil, the other on blowback, and this forum seems to say that there are some minimum loads to cycle these weapons.

I just had a look for less-lethal ammo and found a lot of shotgun shells and rubber bullets.

Does anyone know of a 9mm round that would provide self-protection without totally destroying someone?

I tend to believe, however, that the FBI tests in ballistic gel show that hollow-point ammo is appropriate. Maybe this is a lost-cause search.

 

[ou1954]

Alternatives

OK I lied , one more post , this is way out side your parameters , but I don't know if you are serious or just want to complain, so here is your weapon & yes it is not a SD or Sigma . Less lethal gun being used in Arizona - YouTube

I don't understand the "just want to complain" phrase, no intention to complain.

There are indeed some alternatives to a firearm that deserve investigation. The video actually links to more than one item.

[Although outside my initial query, I have requested information about several of the items linked to the video. May make some sense in this household. Some of the items are not yet available in the USA and the Salt handgun company did survive, apparently after a shaky startup.]

Thanks.

 

[murphydog]

Sir, it sounds as though you had an interesting work career, and thank you for your military service. CA is a very different place than when you went to UCLA...

In regard to your specific question, any 9 mm ammo that is intended to deliver or loaded to less than full power levels will be paradoxically both less likely to stop an attacker (see post 34) and may still kill (a rubber bullet to the sternum may do exactly that). Also as you noted, in a semi-auto like the SD9VE it takes a minimum amount of recoil energy to cycle the action, and underpowered ammo may not do it, effectively turning your 17 round pistol into a manually operated repeater.

There is a reason bean bag, rubber bullet or "salt" guns, pepper spray, and Tasers are deliberately called "less than lethal" - under the right (or wrong) circumstances they can and will kill. Not to say you shouldn't buy and learn to use them, but if a situation escalates to the point in which deadly force is justified, personally I would have the 9 mm loaded with the most effective defensive ammo available in case the less effective methods fail. The goal is always to stop the attacker, but sometimes it will take a firearm to do this despite your best intentions.

Good luck in your decisions.

 

[rwsmith]

If you want to be 'humane'...

FMJ Round Nose Bullets are probably the least effective at stopping or killing someone quickly. Range will be reduced, if you are talking about long distance this wouldn't be practical, but close in, yeah it would. Since the only way that I would fire at somebody would be a dire emergency, I don't want to be 'soft' on the perpetrator.

PS: I've also decided that if I pull a trigger on someone, I'm not going to just pull it once. I want the most effective 'attack stopper'.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Ok, if you truly want options for less to more lethal capabilities, there are some options, but in my opinion, they lie in using revolvers rather than semi-autos.

My recommendation would be to buy a 38 special or .357 magnum. Load he following rounds in order:
1. One Buckshot load - it probably won't be lethal, and shot placement isn't as critical because the shot spreads
2. One Remington Target .38 Short Colt - it will make a nice hole,and cause a lot of pain, but probably won't be lethal
3. One or two (depending on capacity) standard velocity hollow points like Winchester Train and Defend (Alternatively you can use one or two lead wad cutters)
4. The rest should be .38 special +P (or .357 depending on the gun) hollow points.

A less than determined attacker will be deterred by the first shot, or the bleeding from the second. More determined attackers will be stopped by the following shots, and since it's a revolver, you won't have to worry about cycling. If it's a hopped up crackhead or a gang, then you'll probably need a lot more firepower, or run away really fast.