Less-lethal Ammo

[micocyco]

Ken (GKZ) - You are probably right about not being able to focus this forum thread on "less lethal" use of the SD/Sigma firearms.

As you say, "that ain't gonna happen."

I would suggest, however, that weapon use would fit better in the "Concealed Carry and Self Defense" forum.

I would suggest if you are not prepared to take a life in selfdefense then you should not carry a deadly weapon.
As far as I know there is no "less lethal" center fire cartridge for 380, 9mm, 40S&W, 45acp or 10mm that is not deadly & I am sure that covers all SD & Sigma pistols. So then that ' for me ' ends your limited discussion.

 

[micocyco]

OK I lied , one more post , this is way out side your parameters , but I don't know if you are serious or just want to complain, so here is your weapon & yes it is not a SD or Sigma . [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqJAfE90V1k[/ame]

 

[sigp220.45]

I worked one shooting where the guy used less-lethal ammo. He was getting thumped on a regular basis by his much larger brother-in-law, and finally reached his getting-thumped limit. He loaded up his Rossi .38 with factory shotloads and let his tormentor have one right in his fat thigh. It most definitely worked - the BIL howled like a werewolf and carried himself to the ER.

My partner actually got the case, I just went along to help. It looked like self-defense to me - there was a large disparity in size and the shooter obviously took pains to not kill Gigantor. My partner was of the opinion that all shootings should be charged and got an indictment for attempted murder, at which time the shooter killed himself with a .22 rifle he had stashed in his barn.

In that instance at least the round worked, even if the system didn't.

 

[GKC]

My partner was of the opinion that all shootings should be charged and got an indictment for attempted murder, at which time the shooter killed himself with a .22 rifle he had stashed in his barn.

Hence the saying, "Better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6." Except in this case, the shooter got both results.

 

[ou1954]

Well, I didn't see any postings which specifically respond to the original question which was about selection of 9mm ammo but see several comments which were helpful.

During this week I did talk to a couple of law enforcement guys, one local and one state. I talked to the local LEO guy who lives in this development and also got a look at the tires on his car, which are indeed larger than standard. I thought they would be but he hadn't noticed.

I also ran into the state guy who was checking in with me at the same medical office. He was carrying a Glock, (I could tell by looking at the bottom of the magazine) not sure what model, and I didn't want to ask. He did show me how his holster worked . . . no latch or catch, just tilt it back to release.

[Just for reference, here is a part of my original post. "I tend to believe, however, that the FBI tests in ballistic gel show that hollow-point ammo is appropriate. Maybe this is a lost-cause search."]

Thanks to everyone who tried to help.

 

[Muss Muggins]

No . . . .

In reading about the serious damage caused by the ammo used in the Las Vegas mass shooting, the issue of finding ammo that would provide a reasonable level of self protection came to mind.

When I was still in California I only owned, on a full-time basis, some .22 rifles. One was a Remington Fieldmaster pump and I bought .22 ammo with pellets instead of a slug. Made sense to me because I didn't need to be concerned about what it would take to cycle the rounds.

When we returned to Oklahoma I sold the rifles and now own an SD9VE and a .22 1911 replica (a nostalgia purchase). [No longer interested in hunting, no need for rifles.]

One pistol relies on recoil, the other on blowback, and this forum seems to say that there are some minimum loads to cycle these weapons.

I just had a look for less-lethal ammo and found a lot of shotgun shells and rubber bullets.

Does anyone know of a 9mm round that would provide self-protection without totally destroying someone?

I tend to believe, however, that the FBI tests in ballistic gel show that hollow-point ammo is appropriate. Maybe this is a lost-cause search.

 

[ou1954]

Alternatives

OK I lied , one more post , this is way out side your parameters , but I don't know if you are serious or just want to complain, so here is your weapon & yes it is not a SD or Sigma . Less lethal gun being used in Arizona - YouTube

I don't understand the "just want to complain" phrase, no intention to complain.

There are indeed some alternatives to a firearm that deserve investigation. The video actually links to more than one item.

[Although outside my initial query, I have requested information about several of the items linked to the video. May make some sense in this household. Some of the items are not yet available in the USA and the Salt handgun company did survive, apparently after a shaky startup.]

Thanks.

 

[murphydog]

Sir, it sounds as though you had an interesting work career, and thank you for your military service. CA is a very different place than when you went to UCLA...

In regard to your specific question, any 9 mm ammo that is intended to deliver or loaded to less than full power levels will be paradoxically both less likely to stop an attacker (see post 34) and may still kill (a rubber bullet to the sternum may do exactly that). Also as you noted, in a semi-auto like the SD9VE it takes a minimum amount of recoil energy to cycle the action, and underpowered ammo may not do it, effectively turning your 17 round pistol into a manually operated repeater.

There is a reason bean bag, rubber bullet or "salt" guns, pepper spray, and Tasers are deliberately called "less than lethal" - under the right (or wrong) circumstances they can and will kill. Not to say you shouldn't buy and learn to use them, but if a situation escalates to the point in which deadly force is justified, personally I would have the 9 mm loaded with the most effective defensive ammo available in case the less effective methods fail. The goal is always to stop the attacker, but sometimes it will take a firearm to do this despite your best intentions.

Good luck in your decisions.

 

[rwsmith]

If you want to be 'humane'...

FMJ Round Nose Bullets are probably the least effective at stopping or killing someone quickly. Range will be reduced, if you are talking about long distance this wouldn't be practical, but close in, yeah it would. Since the only way that I would fire at somebody would be a dire emergency, I don't want to be 'soft' on the perpetrator.

PS: I've also decided that if I pull a trigger on someone, I'm not going to just pull it once. I want the most effective 'attack stopper'.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Ok, if you truly want options for less to more lethal capabilities, there are some options, but in my opinion, they lie in using revolvers rather than semi-autos.

My recommendation would be to buy a 38 special or .357 magnum. Load he following rounds in order:
1. One Buckshot load - it probably won't be lethal, and shot placement isn't as critical because the shot spreads
2. One Remington Target .38 Short Colt - it will make a nice hole,and cause a lot of pain, but probably won't be lethal
3. One or two (depending on capacity) standard velocity hollow points like Winchester Train and Defend (Alternatively you can use one or two lead wad cutters)
4. The rest should be .38 special +P (or .357 depending on the gun) hollow points.

A less than determined attacker will be deterred by the first shot, or the bleeding from the second. More determined attackers will be stopped by the following shots, and since it's a revolver, you won't have to worry about cycling. If it's a hopped up crackhead or a gang, then you'll probably need a lot more firepower, or run away really fast.

 

[micocyco]

I don't understand the "just want to complain" phrase, no intention to complain.

There are indeed some alternatives to a firearm that deserve investigation. The video actually links to more than one item.

[Although outside my initial query, I have requested information about several of the items linked to the video. May make some sense in this household. Some of the items are not yet available in the USA and the Salt handgun company did survive, apparently after a shaky startup.]

Thanks.

My complain comment was about you seeming to think your thread should stick to your narrow post. That I think there is no way you could not know would run the way it did. I would challenge you to find one thread here that has not run off subject. I for one want to read even very far outside the box comments. Thinking outside the box may get you what you want I don't think you are ever going to get it with your SD.

 

[VNK971]

You should read Jim Cirillo's "Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights." One story is about a bad guy who took eleven LRN .38 specials to the head and only got a headache and a bloody nose. He found the wadcutter was a "better" round than a round nose. Like in a target the wadcutter cuts the tissue while the round nose wound cavity closed after the bullet passed through. The wadcutter also bit into bone, like the skull, instead of bouncing off. He also found JHP will act just like round nose if the nose cavity fills with cloth or filling from something like a down jacket. This suggests the FMJ in 9mm would be a less lethal round.

 

[ou1954]

Topics

My complain comment was about you seeming to think your thread should stick to your narrow post. That I think there is no way you could not know would run the way it did. I would challenge you to find one thread here that has not run off subject. I for one want to read even very far outside the box comments. Thinking outside the box may get you what you want I don't think you are ever going to get it with your SD.

I think my post, the one you quoted above, accepts that notion.

With respect to "thinking outside the box", my book on "Real World Engineering" in near final form, describes my experience in 56 years in industry and has a chapter titled:

"Thinking outside the box . . . There is no box"

 

[johnt671]

Very early in training the Corps taught me not to point a weapon at someone you didn't intend to kill. This is good advice. Once you pull a firearm on someone it gets bad fast.

 

[ou1954]

Don't point

Very early in training the Corps taught me not to point a weapon at someone you didn't intend to kill. This is good advice. Once you pull a firearm on someone it gets bad fast.

Learned that in grade school, with my BB gun. "Don't point that, you could put someone's eye out." Heard it every time I had the gun in my hands . . . drilled in.

And it continued with my .22, and so on.

 

[silversnake]

OK I lied , one more post , this is way out side your parameters , but I don't know if you are serious or just want to complain, so here is your weapon & yes it is not a SD or Sigma . Less lethal gun being used in Arizona - YouTube

Very interesting idea, thanks for posting. Not what I plan on carrying but might be an option for those who want another less lethal option.

 

[Jim NNN]

Believe it or not, I recall that Bersa (of Argentina) was marketing one of their very popular .380 pistols in what they called a "less than lethal" package. I personally thought was an ill conceived idea, and apparently they eventually did, too, because I stopped seeing them before very long. This was several years ago.

The idea that a .380 could be turned into something between a stun gun and a lethal firearm seemed dubious, at best. True, most people don't die for handgun wounds, and true, .380 isn't the most powerful cartridge, but my confidence in the manufacturer's claim would be low, even with light loads. To be fair, I don't know what kind of ammo they're talking about, but they did include it in the package, as I recall.

The defenzia video that someone posted could be an option. Looks promising. Though I'm not in line with the OP's intent, I don't find his goal silly or foolish. We all have to develop our philosophy of defense for ourselves.

 

[snuffy51]

Hi. Midway USA has CCI 9mm shot shells. 53 gr. #12 shot-box of 10- and 45 gr. #4 shot-box of 10, about 11 or 12 bucks a box. Read a piece about them awhile back and you'll have to manually rack the slide each shot. If you're convinced you want to carry less lethal, might look at those loads. I have to use real bullets cause I ain't able to run. Good luck and be safe.