Lets go on the Offensive

[Buffalohunter60]

Maybe we need to start holding our elected representatives responsible for upholding the Oath they took. A list of the Oath breakers would be a start and then contact the Second Amendment Foundation, the NRA, Oathkeepers and some of the other organizations about charging them in court with failing to keep the oath they have sworn to defend. I think they should be held accountable for their actions and if there is any justice, they should lose their job along with all pay, benifits and retirement. It may make them think about taking an Oath so lightly. They work for us not the other way around and we pay their wages and retirement. I believe we should hold them accountable and not just by the vote. Breaking an Oath you have sworn to defend may be treason. I do not have a lot of faith in the justice system but we need to do something to get their attention. Defence costs money.....just be charged falsely and see what it costs to defend yourself. They would be facing a serious penalty if found guilty and something for elected officals to think about....so far some of them have run rampant over the Constitution and have not been held accountable because I believe they think they are above the law....we can change that and I am willing to donate to that cause...lets hold their feet to the fire for a change. So far they are shooting at us and we are just defending....lets give them a legal battle to think about and hopefully avoid the other one.
I have contacted Oathkeepers and suggested taking legal action against our elected Oathbreakers, I am waiting for his reply. Next I will contact the NRA and the Second Amendment Foundation...I hope we can all get behind an effort to hold our elected representitives responsible for their actions. We need to shoot back. The best defence is a good offence....we have the numbers, the power and the money to hold their feet to the fire and remind them that they work for us...many seem to have forgot that. A legal battle will be prefered to the battle that would come if confistication is ever tried and this may be the best way to attack this problem. Lets hold them responsible for their actions.

 

[Erich]

Well, it's frustrating, but such a law would be unconstitutionally vague, for starters. And how do you propose to get the politicians to pass such a law in the first place?

 

[animal]

I don't think that the oath to defend the Constitution means that one can never propose or support legislation that might be ultimately ruled unconstitutional. Many legislators and executives would be out of office by the time the issue worked its way through the courts.

And remember this idea cuts both ways. I don't have any data handy, but I'm sure there are prominent pro-gun rights legislators who have supported legislation that has ultimately been ruled unconstitutional. You might be losing some legislators that are friendly to your cause under this plan.

And if proposing or supporting a law that was eventually ruled unconstitutional was treasonous (a patently ridiculous proposition), only an idiot would ever run for office, and those idiots would never pass any laws.

 

[Buffalohunter60]

Well, it's frustrating, but such a law would be unconstitutionally vague, for starters. And how do you propose to get the politicians to pass such a law in the first place?

I am not talking about passing any new law, I am talking about holding their feet to the fire. If youn take an oath to Defend the Constitution and then you propose to infringe on the people second amendment, you should be held accountable. If you elected me to represent you...and I proposed to take away your AR-15 ....then I am infringing on your right to keep and bear arms. "Not to be infringed" is simple for me to understand. Taking you AR-15 is "infringing" on your right to bear arms. I should be charged in a court of law...and if found guilty...lose the job, benifits and possible serve some time for breaking the Oath I swore to defend. Puts them on the defensive for a change. We the people have to obey the law or face the consequences. Politicions are not above the law. Duke Cunningham discovered that and I had considered him an American Icon. Politics and power can corrupt...they need to be held accountable for what they do just as we are held accountable for what we do. If there are reprecussions for your actions, you may think about what you propose as it could affect you personally. As it stands they think they can propose anything and not be held accountable. That needs to change.

 

[Buffalohunter60]

I don't think that the oath to defend the Constitution means that one can never propose or support legislation that might be ultimately ruled unconstitutional. Many legislators and executives would be out of office by the time the issue worked its way through the courts.

And remember this idea cuts both ways. I don't have any data handy, but I'm sure there are prominent pro-gun rights legislators who have supported legislation that has ultimately been ruled unconstitutional. You might be losing some legislators that are friendly to your cause under this plan.

And if proposing or supporting a law that was eventually ruled unconstitutional was treasonous (a patently ridiculous proposition), only an idiot would ever run for office, and those idiots would never pass any laws.

I agree with part of what you say....but there is such a thing as total disregard and knowingly proposing a bill that is a clear violation of the Constitution and for that...they need to be held liabale for their actions in a court of law just as we the people are held responsible for our actions. Its called responsibility and if they are elected to office, they need to be responsible to the peop,le for what they propose. there are clear violations and they need to be pursued....if they are found not guilty...they have nothing to fear but it will make them think before they act. They are elected to a good job with better benifits that the average citizen gets and a retirement plan that surpasses most civilan plans and with that goes some responsibility to the people you represent and the Constitution you swore to defend.
I guess then maybe all of us that served could be called "idiots"...because we swore to defend the Constitution and refusing to do that would be treason.

 

[animal]

I guess then maybe all of us that served could be called "idiots"...because we swore to defend the Constitution and refusing to do that would be treason.

I hope that's not what you took from my post. I have nothing by the highest respect and appreciation for anyone who has served. I am certainly not calling them idiots or implying that in any way. My point was only that no one would run for office if the penalty for voting for a law that ended up being ruled unconstitutional was death, which is what you suggest when you equate it with treason.

Consider this...numerous portions of the Patriot Act have been ruled unconstitutional on the grounds that they violate our 4th amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure. The Patriot Act was passed in the House with 357 affirmative votes, 66 negative votes and 9 non-votes. It was passed by the Senate with 98 affirmative votes, 1 vote against and 1 non-vote. Are you going to fire 98 Senators and charge them with treason?

Simply put, it is not illegal to propose an unconstitutional law, no matter how blatently unconstitutional. There is a system in place to determine constitutionality and strike down unconstitutional laws. There is no "going after" these people other than in the voting booth.

That's the system we've got, that's the system I love, and I thank you and all of those who have served to protect it.

 

[MH8675309]

That's the system we've got, that's the system I love, and I thank you and all of those who have served to protect it.
I agree with you on this but I do understand and share the frustration of Buffalohunter60.

 

[Buffalohunter60]

No Offence taken. I am not in any way proposing a death sentence for anyone elected and there have been too many innocent people put to death by our justice system. I also agree with a lot of what you have said, I am saying that we need to fight back and hold people responsible for their actions. It is ultimately our freedom that is at stake here...without the Second Amendment...none of the others matter because freedom has been lost. I believe in respecting the rights of all people and I believe in liberty and justice for all (but that is not the way it works out....justice is bought if you have enough money for the best defence) In any job, we have responsibilities to the people we work for, and as an elec ted representative...they have a responsibility to the Oath they take just as service men and women take the same oath and are responsible to uphold the Constitution. It is the base that this country was founded on. I believe we all need to be responsible for our actions and if you do not believe in the Second Amendment (as some clearly do not) then you should not take the job because you can not honor the oath that you swore to defend.
What scares me the most is the corruption that we have to deal with ......its one thing when its within a company....but when its a person that represents the people it can have a terrible effect on all of us and can take a lot to undo. People make mistakes and that can be forgiven, we all make them. But if our actions are in blatent disregard for the laws we have sworn to uphold....maybe we should not be representing the people if we can not honor the Oath or have a problem with the Constitution. I love this country and a number of friends died fighting for it and they believed in this country. I have never seen an attack on our second amendment such as we are now having. I have read a lot of history anbd realize what can happen to a defenceless population that have become subjects...and its too scary to think about.
If someone chooses to represent the people and takes the Oath...thats a serious commitment and carries a lot of responsibility. What they do will have a lasting effect on this whole country. I can not get into all of the things that I think are critical because this is the second amendment forum and I will stay on track but our elected officals need to be responsible for the laws they propose....instead of shooting from the hip as one senator from Calif seems to do.
I am 65 and have lived a good and free life because many men ahead of me fought for this country. I honor the men that won WW2 because our life would be a lot different if we had lost that one. We need to win this battle against our second amendment rights and leave no stone unturned because while I want to believe that Consfication cound never happen here...I know it can ....and it would be a battle that would change and weaken this country and who knows what would happen. I do not want to see that happen and I will do everything I can to fight the non-violent battle and hopefully avoid bloodshed. Our freedom is at stake and we can not and will not lose this battle. We are not a democracy and for a good reason. We are a republic...and even the majority can not take away the rights of a minority. Lets hope this is settled peacefully because the alternative will not be pretty and we will not give up our freedom to any government.