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PMRet

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Driving into town a couple days ago, I went through a driver's license checkpoint manned by two of our NC State Troopers. The young trooper who approached my vehicle looked to be in his early 20's. It went like this:

HIM: Good morning sir, may I see your license?

ME: (with both hands on the wheel) Yes, but first let me tell you that I
have a concealed carry permit, and my gun is to my right,
beside the console. My license is in my right hip pocket.

HIM: OK, I appreciate you telling me, and I appreciate you carrying. You
might save my life someday.

ME: You never can tell.

HIM: (after checking my license) Have a good day, sir.

ME: Thanks, you too.

Not the first time I've been thanked by a LEO for carrying...
 
Same happened.to me in Kernersville NC last fall.

After informing him of the weapon on my person he asked "Is it loaded".
I said yes..he said "good never carry an empty weapon"....

We laughed and he checked my DL and tag and said stay safe and i was on my way..

Has happened twice and both times were without any problem at all.
 
I handled my only LEO interaction since CC'ing the same as you. These were the Tribal Police in Cherokee, NC, and they were equally polite.

Of course, and old woman driving with a handicapped placard hanging from the rearview mirror probably doesn't fit the profile that sets off alarm bells.
 
bigwheelzip said:
I handled my only LEO interaction since CC'ing the same as you. These were the Tribal Police in Cherokee, NC, and they were equally polite.

Of course, and old woman driving with a handicapped placard hanging from the rearview mirror probably doesn't fit the profile that sets off alarm bells.
Click to expand...



I looked all over, but don't see the handicapped placard!!

(Just kidding!!! Couldn't help it!! Remembered this picture from the bicycle thread!!)

Best Regards, Les
 
Glad to hear the above stories. If I'm ever stopped by an officer I hope for the same outcome.
 
RSanch111 said:
"Driver license" checkpoints? They're illegal as far as I know. Are you sure it wasn't a DUI checkpoint?

Never mind, I guess maybe they are legal....but they shouldn't be....
Click to expand...
Yep, in NC they're "legal." All my interactions with Leo in NC have been equally pleasent.

...North Carolina takes this a step further and allows random checkpoints to detect violations of any motor vehicle law as long as the specific purpose of the roadblock is to detect traffic violations. They cannot be used for general crime control, but can be used to detect unobservable motor vehicle violations such as unlicensed or suspended drivers and vehicle registration issues. No warrant is required, all they need is a written policy for stopping and questioning drivers in a set pattern that removes the discretion of individual officers. Typically the policy will say stop every vehicle and have a contingency that says something like stop every 10th vehicle if traffic begins to back up. In theory, it should eliminate an officer’s ability to single out people based on sex, race, ethnicity, social status etc. The policy does not have to be on-hand and they can adopt the policy of another agency, It’s a pretty loose standard...
Click to expand...
Can the police use random checkpoints in North Carolina? | MINICK LAW

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk
 
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Checkpoints are legal in all the states I've lived in as long as they stop and at least do a cursory check on every vehicle.

My last "offense" (yes, I did something not illegal in my home state, but illegal where I live now) went much the same. Discussion turned form my offense to the range bags in the back, and getting stuff out for show and tell. I got a verbal warning, but the officer stops at the same coffee shop on Saturday, so he'll remember me if I trangress again.
 
RSanch111 said:
"Driver license" checkpoints? They're illegal as far as I know. Are you sure it wasn't a DUI checkpoint?
Click to expand...
Correct, not legal. Not even for DUI checks.

hoc9sw said:
Checkpoints are legal in all the states I've lived in as long as they stop and at least do a cursory check on every vehicle.
Click to expand...
Nope, not even if they do it for every vehicle "just to make it fair".

Before everyone jumps on me with numerous "case law" decisions, I know that courts have ruled them legal. Even so, it is a clear violation of the 4th amendment:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Click to expand...
This amendment is as simple as the second and has been just as trampled on. It is clear that without probable cause, they can't search you, for ANYTHING.

This kind of search is exactly why the 4th was included in the bill of rights. Over the years the courts have allowed this kind of thing because it's popular with the terrified public. Random searches are illegal and don't prevent any crime.

OK, I'm off my soapbox now.

You handled it well and so did the police officer. I wish everyone could be that reasonable.
 
Rastoff said:
Correct, not legal. Not even for DUI checks.

Nope, not even if they do it for every vehicle "just to make it fair".

Before everyone jumps on me with numerous "case law" decisions, I know that courts have ruled them legal. Even so, it is a clear violation of the 4th amendment:
This amendment is as simple as the second and has been just as trampled on. It is clear that without probable cause, they can't search you, for ANYTHING.

This kind of search is exactly why the 4th was included in the bill of rights. Over the years the courts have allowed this kind of thing because it's popular with the terrified public. Random searches are illegal and don't prevent any crime.

OK, I'm off my soapbox now.

You handled it well and so did the police officer. I wish everyone could be that reasonable.
Click to expand...

Rastoff....if i show this post to the Kernersville PD will you post my bail?...lol :rolleyes:
 
cgt4570 said:
While I would never antagonize or provoke any LEO, I would never volunteer any info that wasn't asked at a checkpoint that violates the Constitution!
Click to expand...
Understandable, but you might want to take into consideration the fact that NC law requires that you furnish that specific information whether you are asked or not.
 
Rastoff said:
Correct, not legal. Not even for DUI checks.

Nope, not even if they do it for every vehicle "just to make it fair".

Before everyone jumps on me with numerous "case law" decisions, I know that courts have ruled them legal. Even so, it is a clear violation of the 4th amendment:
This amendment is as simple as the second and has been just as trampled on. It is clear that without probable cause, they can't search you, for ANYTHING.

This kind of search is exactly why the 4th was included in the bill of rights. Over the years the courts have allowed this kind of thing because it's popular with the terrified public. Random searches are illegal and don't prevent any crime.

OK, I'm off my soapbox now.

You handled it well and so did the police officer. I wish everyone could be that reasonable.
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, the supreme court has ruled DUI check points to be unconstitutional but acceptable for the "common good", which makes them legal in most states unless that state doesn't feel that way.
I've never heard of a state that conducts random DL checkpoints.
 
Kodiakco said:
Yep, in NC they're "legal." All my interactions with Leo in NC have been equally pleasent.


Can the police use random checkpoints in North Carolina? | MINICK LAW

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

The Sitz case in Michigan went to the Supreme Court. As I recall, the rationale was that the reason DUI checkpoints were legal was because society's right to be free from drunk drivers outweighed the right of drivers to be free from the relatively minor inconvenience of the stop. As long as the stops weren't arbitrary or random. They had to be every car or every tenth car, etc. There are no states where "random" stops are constitutional.

When it comes to driver license checkpoints, I think the case is Brown V. Texas. In that case a guy was stopped and contraband was found in plain view. Trouble was, they never contested the constitutionality of the initial stop. If that made it to the US Supreme Court, ie. the license checkpoint aspect, I think the court would have said "nope".

We'll have to wait for someone to get busted for something major that's worth appealing and appealing for ten years or so to get a high court ruling on that one. But based on their rational for DUI checkpoints, I'd say they'd rule against driver license checkpoints. If it ever gets to that point...I don't think society's right to be free from unlicensed or suspended drivers outweighs the inconvenience of the stop.

The ironic thing about Sitz was that in Michigan, the appealed it all the way to the supreme court, saying that DUI checkpoints should be legal. After the high court ruled in FAVOR of Michigan, Michigan changed it's mind and said: "Nope, they're not legal." So the state that appealed the case and made it "legal" in the rest of the land, changed course and said: "Yeah....but not here after all....."
 
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PS: Rastoff, cops don't need probable cause to search your car for weapons, they only need "reasonable suspicion". Anything they find after that is fair game. Also, in the vast majority of circumstances with a car, cops don't need "probable cause plus exigent circumstances". The "car" part is presumed, in most cases, to equal "exigent circumstances". So probable cause is enough...Unless they have the lower standard of "reasonable suspicion" for weapons.

In most other cases, cops need either a warrant or probable cause PLUS exigent circumstances for a search to be valid. When they have a warrant, the search is presumed to be valid. When they DON'T have a warrant, the search is presumed to be INvalid and the cops have to show that they had an accepted exception to the search warrant rule. Google; Exceptions to the search warrant rule and exclusionary rule.
 
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RSanch111 said:
PS: Rastoff, cops don't need probable cause to search your car for weapons, they only need "reasonable suspicion". Anything they find after that is fair game. Also, in the vast majority of circumstances with a car, cops don't need "probable cause plus exigent circumstances". The "car" part is presumed, in most cases, to equal "exigent circumstances". So probable cause is enough...Unless they have the lower standard of "reasonable suspicion" for weapons.

In most other cases, cops need either a warrant or probable cause PLUS exigent circumstances for a search to be valid. When they have a warrant, the search is presumed to be valid. When they DON'T have a warrant, the search is presumed to be INvalid and the cops have to show that they had an accepted exception to the search warrant rule. Google; Exceptions to the search warrant rule and exclusionary rule.
Click to expand...
I believe you are wrong.

1. Other than check points(in NC), you can't be stopped.
2. You have a right to say no to a search of your vehicle when asked.
3. Unless they see something illeagl in plain view, they would have to get a warrant to search which is beyond reasonable suspicion.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
hostler said:
...unconstitutional but acceptable for the "common good",...
Click to expand...
Read this phrase closely and consider what it means. You are correct that this has happened. It's very existence means that the constitution has little value anymore. So, if quartering troops in your house is acceptable for the common good, do we just sit by and accept it?

RSanch111 said:
PS: Rastoff, cops don't need probable cause to search your car for weapons, they only need "reasonable suspicion".
Click to expand...
As I said previously, this stuff has been ruled acceptable. It's violently opposed to the concept and meaning of the 4th amendment. Besides, it's just semantics. What's the difference between probable cause and reasonable suspicion? It's just lawyer speak to say they don't really need probable cause.
 
Rastoff said:
Read this phrase closely and consider what it means. You are correct that this has happened. It's very existence means that the constitution has little value anymore. So, if quartering troops in your house is acceptable for the common good, do we just sit by and accept it?

As I said previously, this stuff has been ruled acceptable. It's violently opposed to the concept and meaning of the 4th amendment. Besides, it's just semantics. What's the difference between probable cause and reasonable suspicion? It's just lawyer speak to say they don't really need probable cause.
Click to expand...

The 4th amendment doesn't prohibit warrantless searches. It prohibits unreasonable searches and says warrants will not be issued without probable cause, among a few other things. Key word: "Reasonable". I think it's reasonable to allow cops to search without a warrant as long as they have probable cause plus exigent circumstances. I also reluctantly think DUI checkpoints are reasonable. I absolutely don't think driver license checkpoints are reasonable.
 
You're right RSanch111, it does say reasonable. I think stopping, or arresting my progress, without some probable reason specifically about me, is unreasonable.

I agree, stopping people just to check for their ID is unreasonable. I think requiring a patron of a drinking establishment to submit to a breathalyzer as they leave, reasonable. I do not find stopping random people on the road, just to "see" if they're intoxicated, reasonable.

Unfortunately, "reasonable" is extremely ambiguous. Also unfortunately, it's everywhere in the law. As long as reasonable people sit back and allow the courts to make unreasonable rulings, we'll continue to deal with this stupidity.

PMRet and the policeman he met are both reasonable people. That is obvious by how their encounter played out. The establishment that requires that policeman to stop random people is not reasonable and should be disciplined as well as schooled on the meaning of liberty.

I'll leave this alone now.
 
RED ALERT!!!

bigwheelzip said:
I handled my only LEO interaction since CC'ing the same as you. These were the Tribal Police in Cherokee, NC, and they were equally polite.

Of course, and old woman driving with a handicapped placard hanging from the rearview mirror probably doesn't fit the profile that sets off alarm bells.
Click to expand...

The old woman with the handicapped placard could/should set off alarm bells, because that very same placard notes it's to be removed from the mirror bracket while driving. And I reckon the judge would dismiss the charge, and scowl fiercely at the officer who wrote her up for such an offense----unless he was recently reelected. Then, all bets are off!!

Ralph Tremaine
 
While I don't necessarily agree with the premise of licence checks, I took the approach that the young trooper was "just doing his job", "following orders", or whatever you want to call it. He was very respectful, and I tried to be, as well.

Under North Carolina law I was required to inform him that I was armed, and so I did. Again, he didn't make the law. Besides, both my license and my weapon were at my right hip, and I wanted to make sure he knew I was reaching for my license.

The fact that he appreciated me carrying reflects the same attitude I have encountered with virtually every LEO I've spoken with on the subject. That, to me, is a good thing...
 
rct269 said:
The old woman with the handicapped placard could/should set off alarm bells, because that very same placard notes it's to be removed from the mirror bracket while driving.
Click to expand...
I know, I know, I'm a reckless scofflaw. :eek: :o

Then, when i remove it, I forget to re-display when parking, and get dinged. Luckily, the officials in charge have been understanding, and pulled the tickets.
 
hostler said:
For what it's worth, the supreme court has ruled DUI check points to be unconstitutional but acceptable for the "common good", which makes them legal in most states unless that state doesn't feel that way.
I've never heard of a state that conducts random DL checkpoints.
Click to expand...

The state of CT does this ALL OF THE TIME!!
 
Texas used to do license checks quite frequently when I was younger. Every vehicle on a particular road would be stopped and the driver asked for a license. At some point that stopped, as I recall due to some court decision or other.

The only checkpoints I'm aware of in Texas now are the immigration checkpoints near the Mexican border. These aren't conducted by police officers, but rather by CBP. I, like many, believe these to be unconstitutional, but evidently the courts have ruled otherwise, so I stop and answer the questions along with everyone else. "Are you an American citizen?" Yes. "Is everyone else in the vehicle citizens or legal residents?" Yes. Then once the drug sniffing dog finishes its job, "Please proceed. Have a nice day." No ID is asked for or shown.

I imagine they catch more drug smugglers this way than they do illegal border crossers.

Hmm . . . random thought/question. I am always armed at the checkpoints, but have never informed the officer. Texas law requires that we inform law enforcement if we are stopped. I suppose I have technically broken the law several times. I just never really thought about it before. I guess next time I had better tell them just in case.

EDIT
Doing a bit of research I found that they are not authorized to enforce state law, so I'll just keep my mouth shut.
 
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