Question for Cops

[DWalt]

Driving home tonight, my wife was pulled over on a busy access road by a San Antonio cop. Bear in mind she never got a traffic ticket for anything in her life and she went into panic mode. The cop told her that her rear license plate light was “too dim” and wrote her a warning ticket. Additionally, the cop took her drivers license back to his car, and she said he was there for at least 10-15 minutes, I suppose checking for anything outstanding, which of course there was not. She came home extremely disturbed. I checked her rear plate lights, two of them above the plate, factory standard, and both were OK, neither was burned out. The license plate was well illuminated and very legible, black letters on a white background. So why would something like this happen? Maybe her car was the same make and model as a BOLO. Nothing makes sense to me about the incident.

 

[Vtgw938]

Correct. Legal here in the second Circuit or used to be, a pretext stop. Some violation be it minor and you use it to check out the vehicle and occupants. Used to be called good police work. Something caught his eye or matched a description. As a game warden I used no front plate, driving left of center and driving to fast for conditions when it suited me. Made many game cases and even felonies and never hid it from the prosecutor or defense. Frowned upon now up here though I believe still legal.

If it is the case be glad they are out on the hunt.

 

[30-30remchester]

Don't want to hijack the OP's thread, but I also have a law enforcement question. I will leave it to the DEWALT to give a yea or nea to my question.

 

[DWalt]

Fine with me.

Regarding my situation, everything suggests my wife’s experience tonight was clearly an illegal pretext stop as no law was broken or traffic violation existed to warrant a stop. As such, the stop was illegal under both Texas law and the Fourth Amendment. I don’t think it is worth filing a formal complaint against SAPD, but I’m mad as hell over it.

 

[Beemer-mark]

So what loss did your wife have? 15 minute routine stop and showing her license, registration, and insurance? Call the ALCU.

 

[steelslaver]

It is still total Bravo Sierra even if it is 1 second of THEIR TIME. Their time is exactly that, it isn't law enforcement time's to use for fishing expeditions. If someone hasn't done anything wrong law enforcement has no legal reason to stop them no matter how "wonderful" their intentions. Things like this are the reason many CITIZENS are not fans of the blue

 

[SAFireman]

DeWalt - there are numerous plate readers throughout the city. It is possible that there was a 'hit' on the plate. Maybe it was mis-read, maybe he got the wrong car (a lot of cars look alike these days). Or maybe something was going on nearby and her car was a close match for a perp ride.

No harm, no foul, those guys are just out doing their job. And they don't give away all the trade secrets during the stop, so the license plate 'dim light' was good enough pretext to rule her out of whatever might have transpired elsewhere.

 

[Rodan]

No harm, no foul, those guys are just out doing their job.

Disagree, 100%.

An unlawful seizure is an unlawful seizure. Period, full stop. And unless there was a legal reason for the stop it was unlawful, and a violation of the officer's Oath of Office, not to mention the rights of the person stopped. If there was a legitimate reason for the stop, it should have been provided. There's no 'trade secret' to be protected here; pretext stops (which are legal) are a well known tactic. There's no harm in telling an individual that their car matched a description, etc.

There is nothing more important in LE work than respect for the 4th Amendment. Small violations like these are a very slippery slope to the justification of more egregious transgressions.

 

[Bald1]

Correct. Legal here in the second Circuit or used to be, a pretext stop. Some violation be it minor and you use it to check out the vehicle and occupants. Used to be called good police work. Something caught his eye or matched a description. As a game warden I used no front plate, driving left of center and driving to fast for conditions when it suited me. Made many game cases and even felonies and never hid it from the prosecutor or defense. Frowned upon now up here though I believe still legal.

If it is the case be glad they are out on the hunt.

So as a game warden you made traffic stops? Or only when you suspected a game violation?

 

[Bald1]

Disagree, 100%.

An unlawful seizure is an unlawful seizure. Period, full stop. And unless there was a legal reason for the stop it was unlawful, and a violation of the officer's Oath of Office, not to mention the rights of the person stopped. If there was a legitimate reason for the stop, it should have been provided. There's no 'trade secret' to be protected here; pretext stops (which are legal) are a well known tactic. There's no harm in telling an individual that their car matched a description, etc.

There is nothing more important in LE work than respect for the 4th Amendment. Small violations like these are a very slippery slope to the justification of more egregious transgressions.

Well stated sir. And thank you for serving the public in such a professional manner doing a thankless job.

 

[Bald1]

Are you a lawyer? We really don't know all the details, and never will. Innocent until proven guilty applies to LE also.

No but he is a cop.

 

[Bald1]

I used to start work at 2am. I’d leave my house at 1:15 am. I ran back roads parallel to the “main drag”. It also took me past the State Police Barracks and Sherriff sub station. Twice within a month I was pulled over on a Friday nite/Saturday morning. Both Sheriff deputies. They were both clearly fishing. Checking to see if I’d been drinking and staying on side roads. They both said the same thing. “You were weaving”. Neither one of them was following me. They were parked and pulled out right behind me and lit me up. They got a little snarky when I asked exactly where they saw me weaving. One deputy went so far as to say “I’ll ask the questions”. Well the conversations tone obviously changed after that. I said write me a ticket, give me a breathalyzer or let me go. You’re making me late for work.

 

[Puller]

DWALT, what violation did the warning ticket indicate?

 

[Vtgw938]

So as a game warden you made traffic stops? Or only when you suspected a game violation?

In most states, wardens or whatever name they go by have full police authority but normally concentrate on fish & wildlife offenses. For me, I would make motor vehicle violation stops when public safety was involved or when I suspected wildlife crimes or other crimes were involved. You must realize I worked in a very rural patrol area and I seldom arrested someone I did not know, know their vehicle and their habits. I/we work where there is a low law enforcement presence, especially off the pavement and after hours anyone else was working. A fairly common technique for my local offenders was to head on on a rainy night in a "field car", one with no plates, unregistered and multiple equipment violations, shooting deer under a light. They did this so they could ditch the car without it being tied to them. So yes, I enforced motor vehicle laws on occasion.

A warden or a police officer who simply takes what he sees or what the radio gives her is doing a disservice to their community. Again, here under the Second Circuit Court of Appeals, so called pretextual stops were lawful. The stop required the lawful right to enforce that law and reasonable suspicion that the violation occurred. At least in my case, more times than not it would lead to a wildlife or criminal arrest.

 

[Vtgw938]

Disagree, 100%.

An unlawful seizure is an unlawful seizure. Period, full stop. And unless there was a legal reason for the stop it was unlawful, and a violation of the officer's Oath of Office, not to mention the rights of the person stopped. If there was a legitimate reason for the stop, it should have been provided. There's no 'trade secret' to be protected here; pretext stops (which are legal) are a well known tactic. There's no harm in telling an individual that their car matched a description, etc.

There is nothing more important in LE work than respect for the 4th Amendment. Small violations like these are a very slippery slope to the justification of more egregious transgressions.

I agree there should always be reasonable suspicion to detain on a motor vehicle stop and no reason not to tell the operator the violation they were stopped for. The officer doesn't need to explain any suspicions, though he may during his brief inquiry. I think every officer should have good intentions, though good intentions don't make an unreasonable act, reasonable.

 

[dockmurgw]

Not a year goes by that I don't read about a human trafficker, drug smuggler, murder suspect...pick a crime, any crime...that is caught as a result of the pretextual stop somewhere in the US. I have no problem with them.

 

[IronSkillet]

DeWalt - there are numerous plate readers throughout the city. It is possible that there was a 'hit' on the plate. Maybe it was mis-read, maybe he got the wrong car (a lot of cars look alike these days). Or maybe something was going on nearby and her car was a close match for a perp ride.

No harm, no foul, those guys are just out doing their job. And they don't give away all the trade secrets during the stop, so the license plate 'dim light' was good enough pretext to rule her out of whatever might have transpired elsewhere.

Then why didn’t this dynamic pro-active officer fighting crime not have the common sense to catch and release? Many of today’s officers lack critical thinking.

 

[IAM Rand]

You can be mad or file a complaint. If you feel strongly enough, file a complaint. I have stopped people for no license plate lights but, not dim. We are getting one side of the story so I will reserve judgement until we hear from the officer. Everyone seems to have a "Bad cop" story. Do patrol officers/deputies stop people over trivial stuff, yes. Are they fishing, maybe. I have stopped many DUI's using low speeds, stop sign violations, and the like. No ETOH, no foul. Would people here prefer that officers just sit around until called?

 

[dockmurgw]

We are getting one side of the story so I will reserve judgement until we hear from the officer.

Bingo! I was thinking the same thing, but kept it to myself rather than offend the OP.

 

[steelslaver]

I would prefer that they leave me alone when I am not violating any law. IF they are looking for a serious criminal and my rig fits the profile, pull me over and BE HONEST with me while you get a close look and the let me proceed on my way and quit wasting both my time and his. Most of the time BS stops at night are a way to find drunks. I am not against getting drunks off the road either. BUT, just why should LEOs think it is fine for them to break and bend the rules while expecting me to play by them.

I have been stopped a couple times for minor things around here I didn't use my signal, a light was out etc. Everyone of them was nice about it. I was gone in less than 5 minutes every time. Thats fine, I get it, I even appreciate knowing a light was out. One even gave me a ticket for 35 in a 25 going down a steep grade and not paying attention. Maybe 10 minutes tops. JP fined me $20 and didn't put it on my record. I know they were mostly looking for drunks, but they also had a LEGITIMATE reason to pull me over.

 

[dockmurgw]

I support pretextual stops 101%. But there is one instance where I am grateful that one did not happen. My daughter, a state trooper, was on her way home a 1:00 AM at the conclusion of her shift. She was following a car, and as she described it had a strange feeling, followed the car hoping they would cross the line or something that would give her an excuse to pull them over. They didn't, so they both eventually went their separate ways. A few hours later this person was involved in a shootout and was killed by a police officer. Turns out, when she was following him at 1:00, he was returning from murdering his cousin and dumping the body...he was armed and the inside of the car was blood soaked and looked like a slaughterhouse. Had she pulled him over, she likely would have been met by gunfire and probably killed.

 

[G-Mac]

I've had vehicles fail State inspection for license plate lights not working, but I've never been pulled over for it. Lucky, I guess.

 

[14daMoney]

DeWalt - there are numerous plate readers throughout the city. It is possible that there was a 'hit' on the plate. Maybe it was mis-read, maybe he got the wrong car (a lot of cars look alike these days). Or maybe something was going on nearby and her car was a close match for a perp ride.

No harm, no foul, those guys are just out doing their job. And they don't give away all the trade secrets during the stop, so the license plate 'dim light' was good enough pretext to rule her out of whatever might have transpired elsewhere.

now this is pure horse manure.... just tell the motorist that you're looking for a similar vehicle for whatever reason and be done with it. Most drivers then say, "Oh, I see, Thank you"..... 1-n-done!

 

[steelslaver]

Most of those who are all fine with BS stops, will suddenly be all PO when they end being the one sitting alongside the road getting the 3rd degree and wasting 20 minutes of their time when they need to be somewhere.

 

[DixieRanger]

Stopped some years back for expired license plate. City LEO canine officer. Handed him license and concealed permit. He ran license with no records showing.. Ask where the firearm was. Told my front right pocket. Ask if he could see it. Gingerly handed to him and said have another beside seat. Ask to see that too. We had a short conversation bout the firearms. Handed back to me and told me to renew plate. No warning, nothing. Renewed plate that day and called his office and left message and advised had renewed. Have great respect for LEO'S and their sometimes thankless, dangerous job. The end.

 

[Norton 750]

I am one of the good guys. If a cop pulls me over looking for bad guys, I don't have a problem with that.

 

[zeke]

In most states, wardens or whatever name they go by have full police authority but normally concentrate on fish & wildlife offenses. For me, I would make motor vehicle violation stops when public safety was involved or when I suspected wildlife crimes or other crimes were involved. You must realize I worked in a very rural patrol area and I seldom arrested someone I did not know, know their vehicle and their habits. I/we work where there is a low law enforcement presence, especially off the pavement and after hours anyone else was working. A fairly common technique for my local offenders was to head on on a rainy night in a "field car", one with no plates, unregistered and multiple equipment violations, shooting deer under a light. They did this so they could ditch the car without it being tied to them. So yes, I enforced motor vehicle laws on occasion.

A warden or a police officer who simply takes what he sees or what the radio gives her is doing a disservice to their community. Again, here under the Second Circuit Court of Appeals, so called pretextual stops were lawful. The stop required the lawful right to enforce that law and reasonable suspicion that the violation occurred. At least in my case, more times than not it would lead to a wildlife or criminal arrest.

Up here (rural) wardens have full police authority, are the best trained law enforcement available and have the best statewide communications. Being rural they also have the most experience/familiarity covering larger areas and are usually on hand for anything serious outside the cities.

 

[AudieMurphy]

A lot to do with being pulled over has to do with the state. I used to live on the east coast where the State police were very preditory in other words REVENUE generated....yea, it was terrible compared to here is San Antonio...

 

[IAM Rand]

I could site examples. Some cops need to get a life.

That's it, some cops need to get a life. Wow, with that kind of insight, nothing else needs to be said. How bout you do a ride-along and then talk. Are all cops at the top of their game, no. Are all doctors, priests, judges, CEOs ..............? 99% of cops are hard working and do a good job. They are willing to put their life in the line of fire to protect the public and do it 40+ hours a week. Even more if you consider that when they are off duty they are really never off duty. Are you willing?

 

[SMSgt]

I am one of the good guys. If a cop pulls me over looking for bad guys, I don't have a problem with that.

If that's the story they give you, I am too, but don't write a bogus tag light ticket to CYA.

I have told Florida people for years to ditch their "look-at-me" tag frames. No one cares what college you attended or what dealer sold you your clunker. But tag frames/covers have always been a legal pretext to stop someone here. Now they're just getting serious about it.