Light weight bullets in the Model 19

[max503]

I've heard stories about cracked forcing cones on S&W Model 19's from shooting high velocity, light weight bullets.
Lately, I have been experimenting with powder coated bullets. Tried some some 170 grain coated bullets out of the 19 and they did OK. I also had some 95 grain powder coated bullets loaded in 357 cases over a 1 CC scoop of Unique. Six of them, fired double action at fifty feet went into a nice, palm-sized grouping. They also produced a good amount of muzzle and cylinder gap flash.
I only shot 6 of those. I don't want to hurt my gun. Are these loads safe to shoot in an older model 19 S&W?
Here's some of the boolits I've been powder coating.

 

[three50seven]

I think you're perfectly safe shooting light weight cast bullets with a mild charge of Unique. The issue was caused by 110 and 125 grain jacketed bullets and hot Magnum pistol powders like H110, 4227, Blue dot, etc.

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[nedlate]

They also produced a good amount of muzzle and cylinder gap flash.
I only shot 6 of those. I don't want to hurt my gun. Are these loads safe to shoot in an older model 19 S&W?
Here's some of the boolits I've been powder coating.

I loaded up some very light bullets with the same result as you but I shot quite a few of them. I discovered upon cleaning the gun some top strap erosion apparently from the bullets being so short and causing the cylinder gap flash you speak of. I was not a happy camper.


Ed

 

[max503]

I loaded up some very light bullets with the same result as you but I shot quite a few of them. I discovered upon cleaning the gun some top strap erosion apparently from the bullets being so short and causing the cylinder gap flash you speak of. I was not a happy camper.


Ed

I've never seen that kind of flash from Unique. Its pretty but I don't want to harm my 19. Thanks for the warning. My gun is in really good shape and I want to keep it that way.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Back in the Revolver Era , the issues were attributed specifically to the full power 125 . Both 158 and 110 did not have contemporary reported issues .

 

[jimmyj]

Jimmy's rule: stay with factory equal loads and 158 bullet.

 

[jem102]

An associated question. I am picking up a new M66 tomorrow and was planning on running from the cadre of partial boxes I have for break in, dependability, accuracy and recoil testing.
This will be everything from Mid Range .38 Spec. wad cutters, Winchester 125 gr. HP's +P .38 Spec, Buffalo Bore 158 gr. HP's +P .38 Spec (FBI load), Winchester 110 gr. HP's .357 Mag, Remington 125 gr. HP's Golden Saber .357 Mag, Federal 130 gr. Hydra-Shok .357 Mag to Winchester 158 gr. HP's in .357 Mag.

I was not aware of the light bullet issue and as the 66 is about the same gun as a 19 but in SS should all the 110's through 130's be nixed from the testing in both .38 +P and .357 Mag?
I have always carried the 130 gr. Hydra-shok's in my Colt Trooper and it's a very easy shooting and accurate round for a .357 Mag (the Trooper is also a heavy pistol) and wanted to do the same with the M66 if they have the combat accuracy needed. However a damaged forcing cone is not a failure I would care to deal with...
Any input is greatly welcomed and thanks in advance!

 

[310Pilot]

In 38 Special, there should be no problem with the 125 grain bullets: however, those lightweight bullets in 357 magnum ammo can, and often do, cause cracks in the forcing comes of K frame revolvers. When you open the cylinder on any k frame i 357, look at the forcing cone, and you will see it is "cut off" on the bottom at the rear of the frame, not cylindrical, creating a relatively weak point. This is unique to K frame S&Ws. The light bullets move so rapidly out of a 357 mag case in factory magnum loads that the powder is burning at a higher rate/volume than behind a heavier, slower bullet, resulting in more stress to the forcing cone. That is the basic reason for not shooting 125 grain 357 magnums in K frames, whereas 158 grain ammo is just fine in them, although it is generally recommended that 38 Spl is much better suited for extensive use in them, reserving 357 for carry and limited practice use. All those considerations are why S&W developed the L frame guns (586 and 686), which are slightly larger/heavier guns with full circumference "meat" around the forcing cone, and much better suited to 125 grain 357 loads and more extensive use of 357 magnu ammunition than the lighter K frame guns. Therefore, I recommend using any 38 special ammo and 158 grain 357 magnum in your 66, but not the light bullet 357 ammo - save that for your Trooper.

 

[stansdds]

The issue of cracked forcing cones in the K-frame 357's seems to stem primarily from extended use of full power magnum ammo with bullet weights of less than 140 grains. I doubt that reduced power loads, be they the "short barrel magnum" loads or 38 Special or 38 Special +P are going to do any damage.

 

[Hair Trigger]

You'll be okay with full power magnum loads if you stick to 158 grain or heavier. You may find you'd rather shoot .38 Spl +P in that gun when doing an extended range session anyway, as they are easier to shoot accurately and are a lot easier on your hand.

If you reload, you can make reduced power loads that are still faster than .38 Spl +P but much easier on your hand than the full power magnum loads. A .38+P will be in the 850-900 fps range for a 158 grain bullet, where a low powered magnum load starts around 1000 fps. Shooting .38 Spl cases in a .357 magnum frequently will build up a small ring of hard carbon inside the charge holes that make using .357 cases more difficult because they won't want to seat easily. Thorough cleaning of the cylinder is a must when shooting .38's as your main cartridge. I find it easier to stick with downloaded .357 cases.

 

[Babysitr]

Jimmy's rule ++++....mine get 158's with Unique....just starting on .357's

 

[rockquarry]

The .357 Magnum was designed for use with 158 grain bullets and these still work at least as well as other weights. Unless a light bullet provides exceptional accuracy, I'm at a loss to see what advantage they would have over a heavier bullet other than slightly reduced recoil. Of course, any recoil "disadvantage" can be mitigated with well-developed handloads.

There is no basis to the hard carbon buildup claim when using .38 Special brass in .357 Magnum revolvers if you use a brass brush to clean cylinders after a firing session. It only requires a few strokes, same as when using .357 brass. I've used many .38 Special cartridges in many .357 Magnum revolvers during the last fifty years and have yet to experience this alleged problem.

 

[shocker]

An associated question. I am picking up a new M66 tomorrow and was planning on running from the cadre of partial boxes I have for break in, dependability, accuracy and recoil testing.
This will be everything from Mid Range .38 Spec. wad cutters, Winchester 125 gr. HP's +P .38 Spec, Buffalo Bore 158 gr. HP's +P .38 Spec (FBI load), Winchester 110 gr. HP's .357 Mag, Remington 125 gr. HP's Golden Saber .357 Mag, Federal 130 gr. Hydra-Shok .357 Mag to Winchester 158 gr. HP's in .357 Mag.

I was not aware of the light bullet issue and as the 66 is about the same gun as a 19 but in SS should all the 110's through 130's be nixed from the testing in both .38 +P and .357 Mag?
I have always carried the 130 gr. Hydra-shok's in my Colt Trooper and it's a very easy shooting and accurate round for a .357 Mag (the Trooper is also a heavy pistol) and wanted to do the same with the M66 if they have the combat accuracy needed. However a damaged forcing cone is not a failure I would care to deal with...
Any input is greatly welcomed and thanks in advance!

If by "new" M66 you mean the 66-8, shoot anything you want as much as you want. It's as stout as the L frame 686.
I shoot 125 gr bullets out of mine, max 357 loads of AA 5. Good combo for a short barrel gun.

 

[gwpercle]

I double checked the 1cc scoop , using my dipping technique it dips ...
...9.0 grains Unique ... under a 95 grain coated lead bullet , that's about as Maximum a load as I would want to shoot . No wonder you have flash and fire with this load .
If it were me , I would drop the load to 7.0 or 7.5 grains and call it good . At 7.0 or 7.5 grains you should still be in the 1200 fps range, plenty zip for that light bullet and easier on the Model 19 .
Keep the loads in 357 mag. brass , you don't want them getting in a 38 Special .
Gary

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I think you're perfectly safe shooting light weight cast bullets with a mild charge of Unique. The issue was caused by 110 and 125 grain jacketed bullets and hot Magnum pistol powders like H110, 4227, Blue dot, etc.

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NO! That's a fairy tale. It was caused by all bullets. First hand expirence. Mine FC blew shooting 150 gr CAST bullets and Unique powder. See pics and don't repeat fairy tales.

 

[max503]

I double checked the 1cc scoop , using my dipping technique it dips ...
...9.0 grains Unique ... under a 95 grain coated lead bullet , that's about as Maximum a load as I would want to shoot . No wonder you have flash and fire with this load .
If it were me , I would drop the load to 7.0 or 7.5 grains and call it good . At 7.0 or 7.5 grains you should still be in the 1200 fps range, plenty zip for that light bullet and easier on the Model 19 .
Keep the loads in 357 mag. brass , you don't want them getting in a 38 Special .
Gary

The 95 grain loads are accurate, but I will not shoot them in this gun because I value it too much. My dipper technique gives me loads a tad less than yours. If I do shoot this bullet I'll be sure to throttle them way back like you suggest.
I got lucky with this gun. Bought it off a friend (who has since passed away) and its barely been fired. I want to keep it cherry, but I'm gonna shoot it. Maybe kill a deer with it.
The action isn't even broken in yet. It's got a nice, tight, new-car feeling to it.

 

[max503]

NO! That's a fairy tale. It was caused by all bullets. First hand expirence. Mine FC blew shooting 150 gr CAST bullets and Unique powder. See pics and don't repeat fairy tales.

So what do you suggest, sticking with 38 Special?

 

[three50seven]

NO! That's a fairy tale. It was caused by all bullets. First hand expirence. Mine FC blew shooting 150 gr CAST bullets and Unique powder. See pics and don't repeat fairy tales.

Far from a fairy tale. There are numerous accounts of shooters experiencing exactly what I described. Just because yours failed with 150gr cast bullets does not mean it was a common occurrence. It could have been damaged before or even defective from the factory.

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[glenwolde]

NO! That's a fairy tale. It was caused by all bullets. First hand expirence. Mine FC blew shooting 150 gr CAST bullets and Unique powder. See pics and don't repeat fairy tales.

You're basically saying all K frames will crack forcing cones with magnum ammo. Now that's a fairy tale. Your one gun experience isn't enough data to come to that conclusion.

I've fired a lot of full power .357 ammo through half a dozen K frame magnums over the decades and never had a problem.

 

[jem102]

If by "new" M66 you mean the 66-8, shoot anything you want as much as you want. It's as stout as the L frame 686.
I shoot 125 gr bullets out of mine, max 357 loads of AA 5. Good combo for a short barrel gun.

Yes just picked it up tonight and it is a 66-8 with 2.75" barrel.


I certainly don't challenge what everyone is saying as I am not as knowledgeable about S&W revolvers as the rest of you. I can understand how a lighter and thus shorter bullet could strike the forcing cone in a slightly different area due to its profile and at a higher velocity allowing more exposure to the expanding gas but the difference would be very small. Is this a 500 round phenomenon or 5,000 round?