Lightest 38-Special Load Possible?
- Thread starter snubbiefan
- Start date
Hi:
A friend went though the same type episode with his wife.
After buying/trading many firearms he ended up with a S&W Model 30 RB 2" .32 caliber. He put pearl grips on the revolver. Started his wife shooting .32 S&W ammo and worked up to .32 S&W Longs.
His wife loved the Model 30 and carried it.
A friend went though the same type episode with his wife.
After buying/trading many firearms he ended up with a S&W Model 30 RB 2" .32 caliber. He put pearl grips on the revolver. Started his wife shooting .32 S&W ammo and worked up to .32 S&W Longs.
His wife loved the Model 30 and carried it.
OP
snubbiefan
Member
Folks....we keep getting back to this thing about me "making" my wife shoot something she does not want to. Hey....I have been sleeping with this little lady for 44-years and she has a ring in my nose. There is no way I can make her do anything she don't want to, but I certainly understand all the points made on that subject. She does just fine with the 327 down-loaded and she can keep a pop-can rolling at snub-nose distances with a 32-short or a mild long, as in the commercially available wadcutters.
We have a multi-story dwelling and not all the guns are in the same place in the house all the time. When we take trips, we often take only one weapon and sometimes it's the 38. I just want her to be able to shoot anything that is handy without fear and she just does not handle the 38-special well. She likes the light-weight 38, just does not like the recoil. (I bet I am not the only husband with this problem from what I have read here.)
I am thinking the 38-Short Colt is a wonderful idea as well as some home-brewed wadcutters that have been suggested here on the thread.
Once again...thanks for the input.
We have a multi-story dwelling and not all the guns are in the same place in the house all the time. When we take trips, we often take only one weapon and sometimes it's the 38. I just want her to be able to shoot anything that is handy without fear and she just does not handle the 38-special well. She likes the light-weight 38, just does not like the recoil. (I bet I am not the only husband with this problem from what I have read here.)
I am thinking the 38-Short Colt is a wonderful idea as well as some home-brewed wadcutters that have been suggested here on the thread.
Once again...thanks for the input.
I think that if she has to use that revolver for real, she will have adrenalin dripping off her fingertips, and wouldn't feel the recoil of a 500 S&W.
I like light loads for practice, it reduces flinching in me, and for 38 Special, I use the standard target load of 2.7 grs of Bullseye and a 148 gr wadcutter. If you use the same powder charge with a 110 gr bullet, the recoil will be even lighter. And I shoot an alloy frame Model 638.
I'd advise her to load her 38 revolver with +P, if it is safe for that arm, and never shoot it unless she has to. She can have plenty of fun shooting that revolver all she wants with 2.7 grs of Bullseye behind whatever bullet.
I like light loads for practice, it reduces flinching in me, and for 38 Special, I use the standard target load of 2.7 grs of Bullseye and a 148 gr wadcutter. If you use the same powder charge with a 110 gr bullet, the recoil will be even lighter. And I shoot an alloy frame Model 638.
I'd advise her to load her 38 revolver with +P, if it is safe for that arm, and never shoot it unless she has to. She can have plenty of fun shooting that revolver all she wants with 2.7 grs of Bullseye behind whatever bullet.
OP
snubbiefan
Member
Cyrano....I agree and if you knew her like I did....you could be sure she has the guts to pull the trigger if she had to. There is probably plenty of times I needed to be shot, but she gave me a reprieve.
House burglaries have sky-rocketed around here lately. I live in a sparsely populated area a few miles out of town and the bad-guys have hit every home over the last year around here....but mine. They have not figured out when both of us are not at home and I guess we are just waiting our turn and hoping to be behind the door at the ready when they do decide to bang the door down. I have already had one piece of trash arrested and hauled-off when the wife caught him in the front yard with his hand on the door-handle of my truck. I appeared just in time to put the 686 in his face and he stood very still until the deputies arrived. They told me they knew him, knew what he was up to and they wished I had went ahead and shot him. I think if the wife had got to him first....she would have.
House burglaries have sky-rocketed around here lately. I live in a sparsely populated area a few miles out of town and the bad-guys have hit every home over the last year around here....but mine. They have not figured out when both of us are not at home and I guess we are just waiting our turn and hoping to be behind the door at the ready when they do decide to bang the door down. I have already had one piece of trash arrested and hauled-off when the wife caught him in the front yard with his hand on the door-handle of my truck. I appeared just in time to put the 686 in his face and he stood very still until the deputies arrived. They told me they knew him, knew what he was up to and they wished I had went ahead and shot him. I think if the wife had got to him first....she would have.
Wee Hooker
Member
FWIW, I've played around with some very light loads in 38 spl for training newbe's. 125gr TCFP cast bullets over clays powder produced recoil that is .22 like but velocity is all over the place as is accuracy. Additionally, they shoot low. i.e recoil is low but they are not good loads to instill confidence in training.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Okay, physics is physics and your wife is your wife. Many have mentioned that too light of a load is dangerous because of stuck bullets. One way to get around that is to develop your own caliber, so to speak.
Take 38spl cases and cut them off by say, .110" or more. Use the lightest bullet you can, 100gr or so, and load them with 38 S&W data. Take more off and make them 380 "ish". We are not talking about rifle accuracy at 100 yards so a 9mm bullet may even be able to be used. A 380, 90gr may not be out of the question either.
Shortening the case is a must though.
If it was me, I'd get her a heavier gun, an all steel "J" frame to shoot on the range and use 125gr bullets at the lowest velocity still inside 38spl data.
For house use, maybe a baseball bat is in order.
Take 38spl cases and cut them off by say, .110" or more. Use the lightest bullet you can, 100gr or so, and load them with 38 S&W data. Take more off and make them 380 "ish". We are not talking about rifle accuracy at 100 yards so a 9mm bullet may even be able to be used. A 380, 90gr may not be out of the question either.
Shortening the case is a must though.
If it was me, I'd get her a heavier gun, an all steel "J" frame to shoot on the range and use 125gr bullets at the lowest velocity still inside 38spl data.
For house use, maybe a baseball bat is in order.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
You are making the problem worse with the light revolver. The lighter the revolver the less recoil it will soak up. It's possible your wife would be less sensitive to the recoil generated in a slightly heavier revolver like the M640, M649 or M60 at 23oz.
I shoot a M442 and a M640 and both are very different with the same ammo.
gregintenn
Member
My wife carries a model 37, but for range shooting, she prefers a model 10. I'd suggest you get her one of those, and encourage her to shoot it all she will. As she gets more comfortable shooting revolvers in general, the recoil won't be as big a deal for her. My wife doesn't mind shooting a model 29 with full house magnum loads; and shoots it well. She's had a lot of practice with K frame 22s and 38s before, however. I'm twice her size, and I can get enough lightweight j frame shooting pretty darned quick myself.
Maximumbob54
Member
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First, go here and read EVERYTHING:
Cornered Cat
I went through this exact same thing with my girl and started to think maybe she liked the idea of having a gun but didn’t really want the reality. I kept trying to get her away from my Ruger MKIII and into a revolver with .38’s.
WRONG MOVE…
Please… Read the website and all that it offers and then think about your situation. I finally decided that the MKIII full of CCI Stingers covered a “good enough” in my mind and she is now happy and will go shooting with me. She is slowly working up on her own and has even shot some of my light 105 gr reloads that I load as light as I can from the Lyman Cast Bullet book. She still doesn’t care for revolvers, but she is back on the right path that I started to derail her from. We may have the best of intentions, but sometimes we just choose the wrong path to get to the same goal. It may be money you don’t think you should have to spend for something you can teach her yourself but she may need to take a class with other women or other strangers period instead of getting it from you. At the complete risk of sounding like a sexist pig here, the shortest path between two points for a woman may not be YOUR path… But the goal isn’t to drag her along… The part that is where we fail is we don’t even know we are dragging her because she is trying so hard to be kind to us.
Cornered Cat
I went through this exact same thing with my girl and started to think maybe she liked the idea of having a gun but didn’t really want the reality. I kept trying to get her away from my Ruger MKIII and into a revolver with .38’s.
WRONG MOVE…
Please… Read the website and all that it offers and then think about your situation. I finally decided that the MKIII full of CCI Stingers covered a “good enough” in my mind and she is now happy and will go shooting with me. She is slowly working up on her own and has even shot some of my light 105 gr reloads that I load as light as I can from the Lyman Cast Bullet book. She still doesn’t care for revolvers, but she is back on the right path that I started to derail her from. We may have the best of intentions, but sometimes we just choose the wrong path to get to the same goal. It may be money you don’t think you should have to spend for something you can teach her yourself but she may need to take a class with other women or other strangers period instead of getting it from you. At the complete risk of sounding like a sexist pig here, the shortest path between two points for a woman may not be YOUR path… But the goal isn’t to drag her along… The part that is where we fail is we don’t even know we are dragging her because she is trying so hard to be kind to us.
Mule88
Member
I know its not much of a defense load, but have you thought about shot loads.
OP
snubbiefan
Member
I gave-up with her on the 38-special. It's the noise and psychological affect I took a 110-grain LSWC down to 2.8 to 3-grains of bullseye or red dot, which kicks about like a 22 MAG in this 38 lightweight. Any less powder in this long case simply won't burn.
I have her shooting 32 Long and 32 wadcutters. I will work her up to the 38-special in time.
I have her shooting 32 Long and 32 wadcutters. I will work her up to the 38-special in time.
Another aspect of handguns
I have faced your problem with women shooters as an instructor for years. One very important aspect of shooting a handgun is the GRIP !
I have found that soft rubber, hand filling, well designed grips are welcomed by women shooters (as well as men) to dampen the force of recoil. The best recoil dampening grips are not usually suited for concealed carry but you must make your choice. The usual stark metal and wood grip of a revolver is not friendly to a small thin hand with recoil. Fill that hand with a firm yet softer rubber grip, and the shooter feels much better. Your wife might feel differently with this approach.
I have faced your problem with women shooters as an instructor for years. One very important aspect of shooting a handgun is the GRIP !
I have found that soft rubber, hand filling, well designed grips are welcomed by women shooters (as well as men) to dampen the force of recoil. The best recoil dampening grips are not usually suited for concealed carry but you must make your choice. The usual stark metal and wood grip of a revolver is not friendly to a small thin hand with recoil. Fill that hand with a firm yet softer rubber grip, and the shooter feels much better. Your wife might feel differently with this approach.
Lou_NC
Member
OK, I know this sounds devious but since nobody else has mentioned it, here goes...........
And remember, this is for your wife's OWN GOOD should she ever really need to use the gun on a bad guy........
What about sneaking some higher-powered loads into her revolver when she isn't looking? Since you reload, you can make them appear just like the reduced loads you're already making for her.
This way if she needs to use the gun in an emergency, with adrenaline pumping through her, she won't even notice it. Of course, you'll have to sneak them OUT of the gun for range practice sessions or the cat will be out of the bag.
Just a thought!
Lou
And remember, this is for your wife's OWN GOOD should she ever really need to use the gun on a bad guy........
What about sneaking some higher-powered loads into her revolver when she isn't looking? Since you reload, you can make them appear just like the reduced loads you're already making for her.
This way if she needs to use the gun in an emergency, with adrenaline pumping through her, she won't even notice it. Of course, you'll have to sneak them OUT of the gun for range practice sessions or the cat will be out of the bag.
Just a thought!
Lou
TSQUARED
Member
I would try the lightest loads listed on the Hodgdon website using Trail Boss powder. if that does not work then the light loads youa re presently using in the 32 Long may be your only recourse.
PhilOhio
Member
This is an amazing thread. It seems to me that the focus should be simplified, shifted back toward a common sense resolution of the original question. Or at least what I think common sense is. Some of you were headed in that direction, emphasizing familiarization with EFFECTIVE catridges.
Carrying, or using, a firearm for defensive use has only one purpose; instantaneously stopping, and rendering harmless, a violent attacker whom you believe to be about to try to take your life, or that of a spouse or loved one.
A rational adult, making the preparations necessary to be ready to do that, must come to only one conclusion about the right type of firearm to have available. It must be reliable and minimally powerful, to conclusively stop an attacker. Conclusively. Forget all the other gun writer stuff.
Any person moaning about how the gun might make too big a bang, or how it jumps in the hand a tiny bit too much, or how it weighs an ounce or two too much or too little, or how its grip does not fit the fingers just so, or how it is too shiny or too black, ad nauseum...is temperamentally unqualified to make life or death decisions for himself, herself, or anybody else. The issue is that simple. You might get them to shoot with you on the range, under special circumstances, but you have not likely changed the Nervous Nelly, hand wringing mindset.
Trying to load a revolver down to where it barely flops a bullet downrange at airsoft velocity sets up the potential situation where an assailant is so enraged by what his intended victim has tried and failed to do that the attack will become unspeakably more violent and vindictive than otherwise.
This entire discussion has risen from a flawed judgement approach to resolving an unreasonable objection to a nonexistent problem. If any person, in this case a wife, is unwilling or unable to use the necessary effective tool, he or she should not try to use an ineffective one instead. It's about judgement.
This thread has largely drifted toward which ineffective tool is the best ineffective tool, or the least ineffective. There is no effective ineffective tool.
The job to be done is helping a wife or friend adapt herself to the minimal requirements of the task...finding an effective firearm with which she can become comfortable and proficient...or else forget about using one. And it would be wrong to cooperate with her unreasonable objections by helping her select a tool that will not work, letting her think that maybe, magically, it will.
Then there is the issue of the thought process and decisions necessary to use a firearm defensively, instantly. That is crucial.
In my opinion, it is not likely that a person who whines about the irrelevant recoil of something like standard .38 Special loads, fired in a small steel framed S&W revolver, is qualified to make quick decisions about when or whether to point it at a human being and pull the trigger, with the intent to kill.
In my opinion, a small .380 semiautomatic or a short barrelled .38 Special will do the job...hopefully, under the best of circumstances. And I've carried something less, in special cases. A Secret Service agent acquaintance carried a Beretta 950 in .22 Short from time to time, for complex reasons. So did an Israeli ambassador I knew. But don't further endanger your wife by equipping her with something which makes a potential bad situation potentially even more dangerous.
Carrying, or using, a firearm for defensive use has only one purpose; instantaneously stopping, and rendering harmless, a violent attacker whom you believe to be about to try to take your life, or that of a spouse or loved one.
A rational adult, making the preparations necessary to be ready to do that, must come to only one conclusion about the right type of firearm to have available. It must be reliable and minimally powerful, to conclusively stop an attacker. Conclusively. Forget all the other gun writer stuff.
Any person moaning about how the gun might make too big a bang, or how it jumps in the hand a tiny bit too much, or how it weighs an ounce or two too much or too little, or how its grip does not fit the fingers just so, or how it is too shiny or too black, ad nauseum...is temperamentally unqualified to make life or death decisions for himself, herself, or anybody else. The issue is that simple. You might get them to shoot with you on the range, under special circumstances, but you have not likely changed the Nervous Nelly, hand wringing mindset.
Trying to load a revolver down to where it barely flops a bullet downrange at airsoft velocity sets up the potential situation where an assailant is so enraged by what his intended victim has tried and failed to do that the attack will become unspeakably more violent and vindictive than otherwise.
This entire discussion has risen from a flawed judgement approach to resolving an unreasonable objection to a nonexistent problem. If any person, in this case a wife, is unwilling or unable to use the necessary effective tool, he or she should not try to use an ineffective one instead. It's about judgement.
This thread has largely drifted toward which ineffective tool is the best ineffective tool, or the least ineffective. There is no effective ineffective tool.
The job to be done is helping a wife or friend adapt herself to the minimal requirements of the task...finding an effective firearm with which she can become comfortable and proficient...or else forget about using one. And it would be wrong to cooperate with her unreasonable objections by helping her select a tool that will not work, letting her think that maybe, magically, it will.
Then there is the issue of the thought process and decisions necessary to use a firearm defensively, instantly. That is crucial.
In my opinion, it is not likely that a person who whines about the irrelevant recoil of something like standard .38 Special loads, fired in a small steel framed S&W revolver, is qualified to make quick decisions about when or whether to point it at a human being and pull the trigger, with the intent to kill.
In my opinion, a small .380 semiautomatic or a short barrelled .38 Special will do the job...hopefully, under the best of circumstances. And I've carried something less, in special cases. A Secret Service agent acquaintance carried a Beretta 950 in .22 Short from time to time, for complex reasons. So did an Israeli ambassador I knew. But don't further endanger your wife by equipping her with something which makes a potential bad situation potentially even more dangerous.
Ding Ding Ding- We have a winner!
I think this last comment makes a great deal of sense. If you don't stop the attacker, you are better off trying to run away. I once had a friend who wanted to buy a cheap handgun for his wife to protect herself with. I asked him how much his wife was worth?
I think this last comment makes a great deal of sense. If you don't stop the attacker, you are better off trying to run away. I once had a friend who wanted to buy a cheap handgun for his wife to protect herself with. I asked him how much his wife was worth?
revolvergeek
Member
I had the same results trying to use some 100 grn TC and 125 TC bullets in .38 spl cases over very light charges of 231. Very low point of impact and poor ignition with lots of unburned powder everywhere.
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Well, he might be a winner, if the thread was about bashing someone for not choosing a "manly" caliber.
Unfortunately it's not the same as trying to get a non-shooter interested in learning how to shoot. Even if she did pick up a .38 to save her life it won't do her any good if she has never shot it enough to be effective with it. The object is to get her to shoot an ineffective caliber at a non-threatening target enough to get her to move up to something she would actually not be afraid to use at a real threat. It may take days, it may be never, but a hit with a .32 long is better than a miss with any .38 or more effective caliber.
An effective caliber is only effective in competent hands, other than that it's nothing but wasted ammo.
Unfortunately it's not the same as trying to get a non-shooter interested in learning how to shoot. Even if she did pick up a .38 to save her life it won't do her any good if she has never shot it enough to be effective with it. The object is to get her to shoot an ineffective caliber at a non-threatening target enough to get her to move up to something she would actually not be afraid to use at a real threat. It may take days, it may be never, but a hit with a .32 long is better than a miss with any .38 or more effective caliber.
An effective caliber is only effective in competent hands, other than that it's nothing but wasted ammo.
PhilOhio
Member
Jellybean, it's entirely possible that you were making some logical point when you made the accusatory comment regarding my earlier post in saying:
"...if the thread was about bashing someone for not choosing a "manly" caliber."
...but I haven't figured it out yet, since I was not "bashing" anybody, as you put it. I'm going to resist the temptation to characterize your post as "befuddled".
Just kidding.
Maybe.
Anytime somebody tosses out that term "bashing", it says something about the user that the user probably wouldn't want said.
But here you made a point that just doesn't fly, in my firm opinion:
"The object is to get her to..."
No, the object is not, or should not be to "get", or manipulate, anybody to do something they are not comfortable with, are not likely to become comfortable with, and are not temperamentally suited for, or qualified to do. Just don't do it.
If you try to manipulate the wrong person into making instant life and death decisions, you, that person, and others may come to regret it for the rest of your lives. And you would be rightly to blame.
And "a hit with a .32 Long..." is probably not often much better than nothing, and may be counterproductive, for reasons I stated. If you can't do it right, don't do it wrong, or you may wish you had not done it at all.
But your last sentence is 50% right on:
"An effective caliber is only effective in competent hands, other than that it's nothing but wasted ammo."
But that ammo could be much worse than just "wasted". It could be fatal to an innocent party.
Don't try to invent "competent hands" when there is ample reason to believe that a person does not want to be what you want him or her to become, or is probably unable to do so. We don't come in one size and type.
Most people who are primarily recreational shooters or collectors, and have civilian concealed carry permits, have romanticized ideas of what defensive or offensive shooting is all about. Gun writers, magazines, and forums like this one shape some of those mind sets. Nothing wrong with that. It's just how things go.
But please, back off, way, way off, on this missionary spirit thing, where everybody has to be converted to being a back yard gun slinger (or woman), ready to save the neighborhood or the supermarket in an instant, even if that's the last thing they would like to do, or feel comfortable doing. Yes, it would be nice if it could be prudently possible. But it won't be.
Some think they can, and know they have. Others think they can, and may do so, sometime. Most talk a good game, and have their hearts in the right place, but aren't cut out for it and hopefully won't get the chance to bungle things for those around them, perhaps fatally.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for lots of people having lots of CCW permits, but I would like to see much more training and discussion of the decision making process, what to do when, and how to be prepared. In my state, such training is close to zero, and frighteningly inadequate.
Lastly, remember that most law enforcement personnel serve an entire career without ever drawing a firearm or firing a shot. Chances are remote that a S&W Forum member, a wife, girlfriend, or child will ever do so either. But it never hurts to have a Plan "B", if it makes sense and is not manipulative of another person, as I said.
My outlook is a little bit different, as I spent many years in situations where lots of thought had to be given to some of these issues. So it was worked out in my mind decades ago. I imagine the same is true with law enforcement personnel. Be a realist.
Then have lots of fun on the shooting range, and reading all the gun magazines, and in these forums, and fantasizing at gun shows. But reality is elsewhere. It is measured in foot pounds, mental and emotional preparation, quick analytical capability, and technical competence. Set aside the missionary spirit thing.
I guess if somebody would call this "stupidity bashing", I'd plead guilty. But maybe it's not stupidity most of the time...probably more like discussing football statistics. Just remember, hypothetical discussion fun is over here, and defensive reality is way, way over there.
"...if the thread was about bashing someone for not choosing a "manly" caliber."
...but I haven't figured it out yet, since I was not "bashing" anybody, as you put it. I'm going to resist the temptation to characterize your post as "befuddled".
Just kidding.
Maybe.
Anytime somebody tosses out that term "bashing", it says something about the user that the user probably wouldn't want said.
But here you made a point that just doesn't fly, in my firm opinion:
"The object is to get her to..."
No, the object is not, or should not be to "get", or manipulate, anybody to do something they are not comfortable with, are not likely to become comfortable with, and are not temperamentally suited for, or qualified to do. Just don't do it.
If you try to manipulate the wrong person into making instant life and death decisions, you, that person, and others may come to regret it for the rest of your lives. And you would be rightly to blame.
And "a hit with a .32 Long..." is probably not often much better than nothing, and may be counterproductive, for reasons I stated. If you can't do it right, don't do it wrong, or you may wish you had not done it at all.
But your last sentence is 50% right on:
"An effective caliber is only effective in competent hands, other than that it's nothing but wasted ammo."
But that ammo could be much worse than just "wasted". It could be fatal to an innocent party.
Don't try to invent "competent hands" when there is ample reason to believe that a person does not want to be what you want him or her to become, or is probably unable to do so. We don't come in one size and type.
Most people who are primarily recreational shooters or collectors, and have civilian concealed carry permits, have romanticized ideas of what defensive or offensive shooting is all about. Gun writers, magazines, and forums like this one shape some of those mind sets. Nothing wrong with that. It's just how things go.
But please, back off, way, way off, on this missionary spirit thing, where everybody has to be converted to being a back yard gun slinger (or woman), ready to save the neighborhood or the supermarket in an instant, even if that's the last thing they would like to do, or feel comfortable doing. Yes, it would be nice if it could be prudently possible. But it won't be.
Some think they can, and know they have. Others think they can, and may do so, sometime. Most talk a good game, and have their hearts in the right place, but aren't cut out for it and hopefully won't get the chance to bungle things for those around them, perhaps fatally.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for lots of people having lots of CCW permits, but I would like to see much more training and discussion of the decision making process, what to do when, and how to be prepared. In my state, such training is close to zero, and frighteningly inadequate.
Lastly, remember that most law enforcement personnel serve an entire career without ever drawing a firearm or firing a shot. Chances are remote that a S&W Forum member, a wife, girlfriend, or child will ever do so either. But it never hurts to have a Plan "B", if it makes sense and is not manipulative of another person, as I said.
My outlook is a little bit different, as I spent many years in situations where lots of thought had to be given to some of these issues. So it was worked out in my mind decades ago. I imagine the same is true with law enforcement personnel. Be a realist.
Then have lots of fun on the shooting range, and reading all the gun magazines, and in these forums, and fantasizing at gun shows. But reality is elsewhere. It is measured in foot pounds, mental and emotional preparation, quick analytical capability, and technical competence. Set aside the missionary spirit thing.
I guess if somebody would call this "stupidity bashing", I'd plead guilty. But maybe it's not stupidity most of the time...probably more like discussing football statistics. Just remember, hypothetical discussion fun is over here, and defensive reality is way, way over there.
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