Lightest Safe 38-SPCL. Charge?

[Delos]

You get the joke??

I get the joke now.

You get the joke?? Baiting?? Surely you jest.

I am "fishing" for any information on why bullet jackets get stuck in barrels. Particularly pistol barrels. Particularly light loads.

First I find an article on military rifles and people cutting the ends off the bullets in an attempt to make a soft point. But military bullets have the jacket put on front to back. It is a little surprising when one first sees a 45 acp bullet outside the shell and sees the lead base with only a small amount of copper folded over the edge of base. So when someone cuts off the front end it becomes a copper tube. Easy to visualize the lead being blown out the center leaving the jacket in the barrel.

Naturally the next shot will wedge the jacket against the barrel tighter perhaps blowing up the gun.

My least favorite brother in law was a WWII marine that claimed to have cut off his bullet tips with diagonal pliers. So my interest was increased.

Right now I am reading an article, on another chat group, that claims his pistol had a jacket come off from shooting a reduced load. He is seeking ways to get the jacket out of the barrel.
I doubt this site would want another sites address posted here. But if you are interested in reading it put search terms "bullet jacket stuck in barrel" and choose the high road dot org. One poster claims that jackets sticking in barrel is one of the reasons for the low pressure load listings?

When I dabbled in reloading, in the 1960's and early 70's, I was only interested in lead bullets. Non of my friends reloaded anything but lead. In my .357 model 19 I only shot factory ammo for .357 so naturally some were jacketed 110 and 125 grain. Lightly charged practice loads were lead, sometimes hand loads, sometimes whatever lead 38 special ammo was cheap. When I switched to 9mm semi-auto's in the mid 1980's I only shot factory. Most of my interest was handguns I could carry at work.

I assumed you were baiting when you got involved in definition of words. Sorry if any attempt to keep it light offended you.

Lots of energy is given off breaking sound barriers. The space shuttle that burned up in reentry not only had missing tiles but was also breaking the sound barrier of air as it entered the atmosphere. Some old riverboats (steamboats, that exploded may have been sinking and cold water flooded hot boilers. Others were just operating at too high a pressure for their metals and age? Like the Titanic one problem might have been cheap rivets.

You might remember old pre-1960 automobiles throwing connecting rods. They switched to shorter strokes and fatter pistons.

I am sure you might have something to contribute here. I will look back over your posts for anything helpful I might have missed.

 

[rwsmith]

Okay

Rather than going all over the place, let's pare this down to your single question. Why do jackets get stuck in barrels?

Conventional copper jackets and lead cores that bullets are commonly made from do not have an intimate bond between the jacket and the core. In other words, they don't stick together very well. Better bullet companies have come up with ways to increase the bond over the years.

They do things like superclean the surfaces of the jacket and core, swage them together when they are hot, and some other operations to make them stick together better.

When shooting, friction and deforming the jacket against the rifling needs a good push from the back from the powder charge. If it doesn't get a good push, the inertia of the lead core makes it go out of the barrel, while the lighter jacket get stuck due to friction. The materials separate. As long as you don't try to shoot another round usually you can tap the jacket out with a dowel or cleaning rod. If not a gunsmith may be required.

Speer Bullets (and maybe some other companies) are now bonding jackets to the cores by electroplating a copper coating thick enough to serve as a true jacket. These are bonded together on a molecular level. The Speer guys did an experiment where they shot one of their electroplated bullets at the edge of a steel plate. The bullet was cut in half, but the jacket remain stuck to each half.

These are not the same thing as 'plated' bullets' that only have a thin coat of copper on the outside. Plated bullets are only loaded the same way as plain lead bullets with the only advantage being that they are a little cleaner to handle and shoot. The coating is not thick enough to be used like a true jacket therefore cannot be loaded as fast as a jacketed bullet.

As far as cutting off a FMJ bullet point to expose the lead, that can be done, but it would probably reduce bullet integrity like you say and make a core/jacket separation more likely.

 

[Delos]

Inertia of the lead core, poor bond, very logical

Rather than going all over the place, let's pare this down to your single question. Why do jackets get stuck in barrels?

Conventional copper jackets and lead cores that bullets are commonly made from do not have an intimate bond between the jacket and the core. In other words, they don't stick together very well. Better bullet companies have come up with ways to increase the bond over the years.

They do things like superclean the surfaces of the jacket and core, swage them together when they are hot, and some other operations to make them stick together better.

When shooting, friction and deforming the jacket against the rifling needs a good push from the back from the powder charge. If it doesn't get a good push, the inertia of the lead core makes it go out of the barrel, while the lighter jacket get stuck due to friction. The materials separate. As long as you don't try to shoot another round usually you can tap the jacket out with a dowel or cleaning rod. If not a gunsmith may be required.

Speer Bullets (and maybe some other companies) are now bonding jackets to the cores by electroplating a copper coating thick enough to serve as a true jacket. These are bonded together on a molecular level. The Speer guys did an experiment where they shot one of their electroplated bullets at the edge of a steel plate. The bullet was cut in half, but the jacket remain stuck to each half.

These are not the same thing as 'plated' bullets' that only have a thin coat of copper on the outside. Plated bullets are only loaded the same way as plain lead bullets with the only advantage being that they are a little cleaner to handle and shoot. The coating is not thick enough to be used like a true jacket therefore cannot be loaded as fast as a jacketed bullet.

As far as cutting off a FMJ bullet point to expose the lead, that can be done, but it would probably reduce bullet integrity like you say and make a core/jacket separation more likely.

The inertia of the lead core carries it out of the barrel….. I thank you very much.

I was trying to visualize the jacket turning inside out (not kidding) or the base breaking off at exactly the size of the lead core, and that base going forward through the copper tube, on the tail of the lead bullet. Nothing I could imagine sounded very good.

I have been reading some interesting posts on other sites. Nothing made this much sense.

Again I thank you.

I found lots of good sites about how to remove stuck jackets, or stuck lead bullets if one has not fired another shot yet.

Naturally I have read many posts on the dangers of low powder charges. Surprisingly no one mentioned using a micrometer on their bullets. Or slugging the barrel and measuring the slug with micrometer. And how that is done with a land opposite a groove.

I read some warnings about having solvents near your primers. Hard to imagine a primer being just a little damaged by solvent (fumes perhaps?).

I have an old High Standard DM-101 .22 magnum derringer that does a poor firing pin strike on one of the two chambers. It very often does not sound as loud as the other barrel. And bullet does not penetrate as far in wood boards. The firing pin strike on the shell is noticeably shorter and closer to the edge. One of these years I will look for a similar spring or at least stretch the old one. And check for a way to move the hammer or firing pin up a little?

(Okay, many many years ago I cut a coil or two off the spring) Lots of reasons for guns to not function properly.

 

[rwsmith]

You're welcome very much

I made some comments in the body of your post marked by @@@

Naturally I have read many posts on the dangers of low powder charges. Surprisingly no one mentioned using a micrometer on their bullets. Or slugging the barrel and measuring the slug with micrometer. And how that is done with a land opposite a groove.

@@@ You see that all over this forum and often that is the first thing recommended to do before anything else.


I read some warnings about having solvents near your primers. Hard to imagine a primer being just a little damaged by solvent (fumes perhaps?).

@@@ Any exposure to petroleum products can kill a primer and powder.

I have an old High Standard DM-101 .22 magnum derringer that does a poor firing pin strike on one of the two chambers. It very often does not sound as loud as the other barrel. And bullet does not penetrate as far in wood boards. The firing pin strike......

@@@ I would think that if a primer ignites, it ignites (especially a rim fire) but it does sound like the poor strike is causing some ignition problems.

='8^ / <-- Hmmmmmmm?


[/QUOTE/]

 

[snubbiefan]

I never play with light loads on anything other than cast (wheel-weight) slugs and even then....only in the 110-grain weight area. Seems to me that a 108-110 grain slug will get started, grab the rifling....and go.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
If you go for the lightest load,,, always ,,Always,, ALWAYS,,,
use a normal to heavy crimp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You run the risk of having the primer push the bullet from the case
before the powder has got pressure up.
with a short bullet the bc gap can unport and you have your gass go out the gap and the bullet stuck in the barrel...
If a long bullet [full wad cutter] the bullet can get stuck between the barrel and the chamber before the powder has got started and
you get a hang fire..
We would hear of a gun in PPC shooting go Kboom from time to time with verry light loads of powder ,, the manuals started upping the starting load soon after...
I believe the cause was the primer would blow the bullet from the case
due to bad crimp, bad case, powder not lighting correctly.etc
causing the bullet to block the bc gap and the chamber until the powder got going.
Around here, a steel chamber with plugs at both ends and a charge of powder fired off inside, is called a bomb.......

 

[rwsmith]

Offhand do you know of any reason not to use standard crimp on 45 auto shells that you intend on shooting in 1917 revolver with half moon clips. (Everyone else is doing something different and I feel left out).

Since with moon clips the cartridge no longer head spaces on the mouth of the cartridge, but on the rim held by the clip, the type of crimp is not a factor as much as in a semi auto pistol. So heavier crimps are ok with moon clips.