Lil' Gun .357 158 Gr. Loads

[686357]

I'm looking into reloading again. Years ago I had a Ruger GP100 w/ a 6" barrel. I exclusively used CCI SMP primers, Starline Brass and H110. 158 Gr. XTP was my favorite bullet. I prefer the "real" magnum loads, but within safe limits of course. I'm a little dissapointed in how watered down most factory .357 loads are.

I'm interested in a S&W .357 w/ 4" barrel. Recently I saw a Handloader mag article that listed a Lil' Gun 158 Gr. load from a 4" at over 1400 FPS. Wow! Is that a misprint or are people really getting these velocities from Lil' Gun powder?

 

[Erich]

No misprint: I get just shy of 1400 fps from my GP-100 4" with TVB 158-grainer hardcast LSWCs over 18.0 gr of Lil' Gun (using a firm roll crimp and a CCI magnum small primer).

M 1399 fps/ES 61,91/SD 23.55

This loading really shines from a 20" tube, tho: just over 2k fps with single-digit deviations.

Frankly, the Lil' Gun doesn't impress me as being especially better than other loadings from a 4". 10.2 grains of Blue dot (standard primer, all else same) gave me 1384/31.08/12.48 from the same gun, and 14 gr of 2400 (mag primer, all else same) gave me 1378/85.84/33.97.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Lil' Gun shines in long barrels with pistol calibers. With a 158gr XTP and Brian Pearce's 19.0gr of Lil' Gun, I get real close to 2100fps from my wife's Marlin 1894 Cowboy Special. That puts it right at the bottom of the 35 Rem ballistics for the same weight bullet.

Been a lot of stories going around about Lil' Gun ruining barrels on heavy caliber handguns. To be honest, I have never shot it in a revolver of mine. Lots of 44Mag and some 357Mag, only from the longer tubes.

Works exceptionally well there!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Like Skip said, Lil'Gun in the .357 Magnum shines when pushed through a longer barrel. I loaded a 170gr Sierra bullet with 17.0gr Lil'Gun and the AV in my 18.5" barrel Marlin was 1793 fps. In contrast I got 1699 fps with the same bullet and rifle using H110.

 

[686357]

Dang it. If it's best from a longer barrel, than it probably won't make too much difference for a 4" bbl.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Not quite how it works.

Dang it. If it's best from a longer barrel, than it probably won't make too much difference for a 4" bbl.

No matter what barrel length you have, slower powders are going to give you higher velocities, period. The problem comes when you factor in muzzle flash and unburnt powder.
Bullseye may be completely burnt by the time the bullet exits the barrel but the velocity you get will be nowhere near what you get with 2400, H110/W296, AA#9 or Lil' Gun for that matter.

Just get ready for a light show though!

 

[imashooter2]

The numbers I have for 18.0 grains of Lil' Gun under a 158 grain XTP are 1,208 fps in my 4 inch 686 and 1,867 fps in my 18.5 inch 1894C.

 

[Mule88]

With 16 Gn of H110 and 158 gn XTP Im getting just under 1300 fps in a 5 inch 627.

 

[surveyor47]

With 16 Gn of H110 and 158 gn XTP Im getting just under 1300 fps in a 5 inch 627.

I use the same load and find that it is extremely accurate, more accurate than anything else including 38 wadcutters. These are ultra hot loadings, which I do not believe are suitable for K-frames. IF a K wont put up with a 125 grain jacketed bullet at 1300 fps, it wont put up with a 158 grain jacketed bullet at 1300 fps. Reserve Lil Gun for L and N frame guns. In fact, the GP100 is about ideal for this powder.

I appologize. I was thinking Lil Gun, NOT H110.

 

[imashooter2]

I use the same load and find that it is extremely accurate, more accurate than anything else including 38 wadcutters. These are ultra hot loadings, which I do not believe are suitable for K-frames. IF a K wont put up with a 125 grain jacketed bullet at 1300 fps, it wont put up with a 158 grain jacketed bullet at 1300 fps. Reserve Lil Gun for L and N frame guns. In fact, the GP100 is about ideal for this powder.

Ultra hot? It's 2 full grains under book max...

 

[Mule88]

imashooter2, Speer manual #14 list the 158 gn bullet and 15.5 gn H100 as max. so its .5 gn over that manual not 2 grains. My load was devloped over time and trial in my 627 (n-frame) I dont use this load in the k-frame. It shows no signs of pressure being too high in my gun and as surveyor47 mentioned it was very accurate, I get sub one inch groups all the time at 25yds from a rest with this load. I never recommend a load I use unless someone works up to it in their gun. But Ive used this load for years and never had a problem.

 

[surveyor47]

Ultra hot? It's 2 full grains under book max...

I appologize, I was thinking Lil Gun, not H110.

I believe that Lil Gun is too hot for a K frame 357 Magnum. I use 16.5 grains of Lil Gun and a 158 grain Hronady, but limit it to L-frame guns due to the extreme velocity of Lil Gun. According to Hodgdon:

357 Magnum
Starting 16.0 grains Lil Gun - 158 grain Hornday JHP- 1504 fps
Maximum 18.0 grains Lil Gun- 158 grain Hornady JHP- 1577 fps.

This is much hotter than the 125 grain JHP loads famous for cracking the forcing cone of K-frames. I see no reason that a 158 grain bullet at this velocity should be any less destructive to K-frames than a 125 grain bullet, but in fact more so.

 

[Lee Jones]

Lil' Gun Questions

Has anyone seen any flame cutting or other damage resulting from Lil' Gun?
How does it affect leading from cast bullets?

Pray and Shoot Daily.
Lee Jones(Celtgun)

"Stand your ground. Do not fire unless fired upon. But if they mean to have a war, then let it begin here." - Capt. Parker to the Minutemen of the Lexington Militia before the Battle of Lexington April 19, 1775

 

[imashooter2]

Has anyone seen any flame cutting or other damage resulting from Lil' Gun?
How does it affect leading from cast bullets?

Pray and Shoot Daily.
Lee Jones(Celtgun)

"Stand your ground. Do not fire unless fired upon. But if they mean to have a war, then let it begin here." - Capt. Parker to the Minutemen of the Lexington Militia before the Battle of Lexington April 19, 1775

I haven't, but I've only shot 4 or 5 pounds of it under 158 grain JHP in a 686. My experience with lead has been in the 1894C under gas checked 180 grain RNFP. No leading, good accuracy at over 1,700 fps.

 

[surveyor47]

The deceptive thing about Lil Gun is that pressure is relatively low (around 25000 CUP) in relation to velocity (around 1500 fps). Blast is low. Cases dont stick. You would think that you are shooting a pip squeek load, but you arent. Instead, accodring to Hodgdon, you are shooting a super high velocity round fit only for L-Frames, N-Frames and Rugers.

The nice thing about Lil Gun is that accuracy is SUPER, as in 1 jagged hole at 25 yards.

If you want to find out what your Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 Mag is really capable of, try Lil Gun within Hodgdon specs. You dont have to load something insane in order to get superior results.

 

[gunguy0829]

How is everyone saying Lil-Gun is too hot for a k frame when the pressures are so much lower than say H110? I'm cunfused a little I guess.

 

[venomballistics]

How is everyone saying Lil-Gun is too hot for a k frame when the pressures are so much lower than say H110? I'm cunfused a little I guess.

good question ...
I've seen Lil Gun in a 460.
At an indoor range, it's fortunate that the X frames are 5 shot revolvers because it leaves a small field of vision between the sun spots so you can drive home.
this new breed of powders seems to be turned up a notch from their predecessors.
Check out the numbers from CFE pistol vs Unique or Universal.
Lil Gun seems to be of this "new formulation" and it's added enthusiasm is likely spawning a new batch of Fudd Lore to go with it.
I have a healthy supply of the stuff, and my observations of it is that it is an over achiever and does seem to do a little more with less peak pressure.
Pressure seems to be it's Achilles heel.
In 350 Legend, this stuff seems to go nuclear as we take it into rifle pressure ranges.
If I had to take a guess at it, this quirk might be behind the Fudd Lore

 

[Tex1001]

Has anyone seen any flame cutting or other damage resulting from Lil' Gun?
How does it affect leading from cast bullets?

Pray and Shoot Daily.
Lee Jones(Celtgun)

"Stand your ground. Do not fire unless fired upon. But if they mean to have a war, then let it begin here." - Capt. Parker to the Minutemen of the Lexington Militia before the Battle of Lexington April 19, 1775

I tested it in 357 revolvers around 2008 and found it overly
erosive on forcing cones.
I use it in my 22 Hornet rifle only.

 

[mtgianni]

How is everyone saying Lil-Gun is too hot for a k frame when the pressures are so much lower than say H110? I'm cunfused a little I guess.

You had one person mainly saying so in 2010. He was thinking that velocity equaled heat in all cases.

 

[M29since14]

Lil Gun does appear to generate noticeably more heat than H110. In loading .410 skeet loads I noticed Lil Gun got my barrels hotter than similar loads made with H110. A lot hotter. I decided I'd just stay with H110 or W296.

I realize that shotgun ammunition operates at less than half the pressure of a magnum revolver round, but what I saw was enough to convince me I'd just stay with 2400 in my .357s, .41s, and .44s. As far as I'm concerned, it'll be a bit of a sad thing if 2400 is actually gone for good, or if it magically reappears - at an unreasonable price.