Load Recipe for Pushing a 125gn JHP at 1450 fps out of a 4" S&W 686

[Puritan]

Hi All,
I would like to duplicate the famous Federal 1450 fps 125gn semi jacketed hollow point ammo in my S&W Model 686 revolver with 4" barrel. I have the bullets and some powders that will get the job done (like H110), but I was hoping for some folks to share their tried and true recipes for getting that velocity out of a 4" revolver with a minimum of flash and clean burning. None of the reloading manuals I've checked used a 4" revolver barrel with 1:18 3/4" twist. I think this is important because the cylinder gap in a revolver will bleed off significant pressure unlike the test barrels used by the powder and bullet manufacturers. I know I'll have to fine tune any load for my revolver, which has considerable mileage on it, but I was hoping to start off in the ballpark. I chronographed factory Federal C357B ammo some years back in this revolver and velocity was about 1430 fps on average. I was thinking about using VV N110 because their published speed range is phenomenal and the powder is supposed to be clean burning and low flash, but again the test barrel didn't factor in the same length, rate of twist, or cylinder gap as my revolver so I have no idea where to set my initial powder charges without sacrificing many bullets in the process. If anyone has a homemade recipe for pushing a 125gn JHP to 1450 fps out of a 4" revolver I'd appreciate seeing it. Please also include type of primer used and COL. Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

20.0gr/H110 (SPM primer) will get you 1400fps (+/- 15fps, pistol dependent) from a 4" revolver using HDY 125gr XTP, in the tests I see in Handloader.

Hodgdon goes up to 22.0gr with that same bullet on their website.

.

 

[rwsmith]

Easy way to extrapolate......

.....data from a 10" 'test barrel" into your revolver's barrel length.

Use a Chronograph.


Doing it mathematically is about as feasible as converting copper crushing units to psi.

PS: Alliant web data says 300-MP can get 1450 fps out of a '10" barrel" with a load of 22.3 grains.

Their 2400 powder can get 1409 fps with a charge of 17.5 grains.

 

[shocker]

Western Powder data says you should be able to do it with AA 9, AA 4100, or Ramshot Enforcer.
AA 9 I have experience with and I would classify it as a relatively low flash and boom powder.

 

[Neal]

Many years ago I bought a new 4 inch Model 686 CS-1. Cronographed both Winchester and Federal factory 125 grain JHP loads. They both went about the same speed over the chrono- about 1335-1340 FPS. There can be a great deal of difference in velocity form one gun to another, with the same barrel length. I'm not saying those loads would not do 1450 in any gun, but IMHO It would be a rare 4" gun that will produce the 1450 with the Federal load. If I were looking for a factory load that would go that fast, I would try Underwood or Buffalo Bore. In my youth, I tried to duplicate the hot 125 gr loads with close to max charges of H110 in front of SP magnum primers. I was using a 2.5" Model 19 back then and had no chronograph, but I was probably getting around 1250 FPS, and tremendous muzzle blast. For more insight into velocity differences from gun to gun, read this short article and look at the velocity charts. It is surprising, especially for the 6 inch revolvers.


Why Ballisticians Get Gray

 

[Nevada Ed]

When the smoke settles.....................

you might find that your weapon gets better accuracy with that 125 gr JHP bullet only going around 1250fps for target work.

I can get my 686 6" over 1500fps with medium fast to medium burning powders. I save my 2400 for the heavier 158 gr bullets.

For SD loads I prefer 140 gr bullets or heavier, in case of heavy clothing.
Not saying that lighter bullets will not work, though.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

If you really NEED EXACTLY 1,450 fps...

20.0gr/H110 (SPM primer) will get you 1400fps (+/- 15fps, pistol dependent) from a 4" revolver using HDY 125gr XTP, in the tests I see in Handloader.

Hodgdon goes up to 22.0gr with that same bullet on their website.

.

...using H110 and a 125 gr JHP out of a 4" barrel you are going to need access to a chronograph.

Using MINUS 37.5 fps for an approximate reduction per inch of barrel as an estimate, then 10" - 4" = 6" X 37.5 = a reduction of 225 fps.

Hodgdons shows 21.0 gr of H110 for 1,881 in a 10" barrel, 1,881 - 225 = 1,656. This is 200 fps higher than your goal.

{{{{CORRECTION: ACTUAL fps REDUCTION (per Ballistics by the Inch) is 1,943 - 1,511= MINUS 432 fps for that Federal 357 Magnum 125 gr going from a 10" to 4" barrel. THIS WOULD BE 72 fps per inch.}}}}

I'd opine that 20.0 gr would probably generate somewhat higher results than BLUEDOT37's estimate of 1,400 fps. They have other published 357 Magnum loads using H110 at other bullet weights (i.e., for 140 gr bullets) going down to 12 gr of H110.

However, if you must use H110...

Get access to a chronograph and load up a few at 17, 18 and 19 gr: make sure they put holes in the target. Then go from there. H110's "no less than 3% reduction warnings" have more to do with the possibility of incomplete ignition & squibs: why they would use a 10" barrel for their load data is beyond me. It is, by the way, explicitly contradicted by their own published data for the 140gr FTX bullet: their START of 12.0 gr is 17%+ lower than their MAX of 14.5 gr.

A 17% reduction of their 22.0 gr MAX for the 125 gr XTP is... 18.2 gr.

It is well known that a good crimp is ALWAYS advisable with this powder. Let us know your experience should you take this route.

Good Luck! & CHEERS!

P.S. Longshot and HS6 near MAX might be more applicable powders. AA#9 and 2400 also come to mind.

 

[alwslate]

If you really expect to see 1450 chronographed fps with a 125 gr JHP
out of a 4" revolver barrel then you will probably have to use 18.0 grs
of 2400 and a magnum primer. Forget the low flash part. Top velocity
comes with a price.

 

[RDub]

Here some different powders were tested with a generic 125gr JHP;




Here I'm testing three different primers for velocity and accuracy with H-110;



Here is the highest velocity I ever got with 300-MP using Alliant's receipe.



Velocity data taken with an Oehler model 33
Gun 4" 686 no dash.

According to my chronograph 1450 was a difficult goal to reach with this gun. I only recorded anything at or over this once with 296. But chronographs don't always agree with one another..

Hope this helps.

 

[colt_saa]

To reach 1450 FPS in a 4" you will need a LARGE charge of H110/296

I have not chronographed any 4" revolvers with this load

Remember five identical 4" revolvers will give you five different velocity readings. Many things can alter velocities . . . . bore condition, barrel/cylinder gap, chamber diameter, rifling type, are probably the biggest culprits

I load the Winchesrter 125 JHP over 21.7 grains of H110 using a Winchester small pistol magnum primer

I have been shooting this load for over 30 years. During that time I have chronographed it in five firearms. This was two strings (1 hour apart) of five shots

3 1/2" Model 27 yeilded an average of 1315 FPS
5" Model 627 yeilded an average of 1416 FPS
6" Model 27 yeilded an average of 1531 FPS
8" Colt Python yeilded an average of 1599 FPS
18" Model 92 lever yeilded an average of 2196 FPS

Your revolver will give us a different number

 

[Neal]

Excellent post RDub! I recall trying to work up max loads with H110/125 Gr JHP and I could not go as high as the loading manual showed because I got high pressure signs at about 19.5 grains, so I stopped there. Of course this was a model 19, back in the mid 1970s. Each gun can be different in how they show pressure. I did not know enough to measure cylinder throats or groove diameter back then either.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

With no attempt to hi-jack this thread...

Interesting reloading fact: The Hodgdons site lists the following load for 357 SIG using a 125gr GDHP from a 4" barrel @ 1,438 fps. Energy S/B similar (a little less, but I don't know why...?) to a Speer factory 357 Magnum 125gr GDHP as well. The factory Speer 357 SIG GDHP is listed at 1,350 fps per Ballistics 101?

No START load, just a MAX of 10.0gr. C (as in "Compressed", although that's no tbeen my experience) 800-X loaded at 1.135".

I've loaded 38 Specials (and some up to +P velocities) with this powder for years with much less concern. For some reason Hodgdons does not list a single load in 38 Special for this powder at any bullet weight? Here, again, they use a 7.7" barrel for the load data: who has a 38 Special with a 7.7" barrel?

Granted it is not the easiest to drop, but I use a scale for all my loads. Can't recall re:"clean", low flash, etc., but it always goes BANG! and no accuracy problems.

To me it is VERY flexible and easy to use: and with 15+1 in my M&P it's a lot of firepower before one needs to reload! Some things are just easier than others.

Cheers!

 

[RDub]

Excellent post RDub! I recall trying to work up max loads with H110/125 Gr JHP and I could not go as high as the loading manual showed because I got high pressure signs at about 19.5 grains, so I stopped there. Of course this was a model 19, back in the mid 1970s. Each gun can be different in how they show pressure. I did not know enough to measure cylinder throats or groove diameter back then either.

Yes, the 19s are nice guns but the K frame just can't handle these max loads. Even back in my LE days we were told not to shoot too many 357 factory loads in the 19.. Eventually they had to go back to the armorer for repair.
The L frame is much stronger, and of coarse the N frames were beasts..

 

[Abflyboy]

Just my opinion here but I would never run loads with H110/W296 in anything but an 'N' frame. Yes, the 686 is indeed a .357 MAGNUM caliber but sometimes just because you can doesn't mean you should. It will be hard on the gun, massive flame cutting on the top strap, multiple fireballs on every trigger squeeze will be daylight bright HUGE, loosening the cylinder in the frame, etc. depending on how much you shoot.

I remember all the different things I tried to get an honest 1150 fps from a 125 gr XTP in a 1-7/8" barrel J-frame. H110 never even got close to that velocity and was super unpleasant to shoot. The load that actually got the stated velocity was actually not that bad to shoot. All the initial shots were fired through an Oehler 35P from a 6" N-frame model 28 before they went through my 340PD.

I accomplished my goal but long story short, it cost me my 340PD. It was a fun experiment and I learned a lot along the way but the cost was a bit high. Could I talk my way into S&W replacing my gun? Maybe but it wouldn't be even remotely close to morally decent.

FWIW, I have put together and shot many thousands of .357 Magnum loads with HS-6 powder that are fast, accurate, give a good magnum 'feel' to the gun, and are fun to shoot.

YMMV, just my $0.02

 

[scooter123]

20.0gr/H110 (SPM primer) will get you 1400fps (+/- 15fps, pistol dependent) from a 4" revolver using HDY 125gr XTP, in the tests I see in Handloader.

Hodgdon goes up to 22.0gr with that same bullet on their website.

.

I've actually tested a 125 gn HDY HP over 21.5 grains of H110. Pistol used was my S&W model 620 and the produced velocity was 1410 fps, just a tad short. The muzzle blast produced was a close rival to a 500 Magnum and according to witnesses the flash was 20 feet long. In addition the flash ring from the B/C gap totally obscured the target. IMO this is NOT a practical load for for a handgun but would be a very flat shooting load for a Rifle. I also expect that in a 20 inch Short Rifle it would probably break 2200 fps.

IMO H110 is a fantastic powder for Rifle loads but it's a poor choice for 357 Magnum Handgun loads. It's just too slow burning and needs a longer barrel to be really efficient. For my handgun I use Accurate #5 for the Magnum "light" and Accurate # 9 for more serious loads.

I'll also note that my primary arm for home defense is a 12 gage shotgun. Because it is vastly more devastating than any handgun.

 

[Puritan]

Outstanding feedback everyone. I figured H110 would get me close but thanks to RDub's amazingly detailed charts with the same model revolver as mine I have a decent starting point. I already have a couple/three pounds of H110 that I use with 158gn loads and in my 44 mags. Has anyone experimented with VihtaVuori N110 with 125gn bullets in a 4" revolver? Their website says it can push a 125gn bullet from 1683 to 1811 fps from a 7" 357 mag test barrel, but that seems ridiculously fast. The reason I'm interested in this powder is because it's supposed to be clean burning and have relatively low flash. Where did the 37.5 fps decrease per barrel inch come from STORMINORMAN? That's an extremely handy tool if reliable. Is that number specific to the caliber or the type of powder being used? Does it take into consideration pressure/velocity loss because of the cylinder gap? Thanks for educating me. I'm not concerned about pinpoint accuracy with this particular load and I don't intend to feed a steady diet of it to my revolver. I just want to have it in my arsenal. I won't be able to test this load for a while because none of the indoor ranges around me allow bullets with exposed lead so I have to wait for the opportunity to drive out to the dessert. I do have a chronograph though and will report back with my findings, but I'm hoping for some feedback on VV N110 before then. Thanks all.

 

[Neal]

{snip}

IMO H110 is a fantastic powder for Rifle loads but it's a poor choice for 357 Magnum Handgun loads. It's just too slow burning and needs a longer barrel to be really efficient. For my handgun I use Accurate #5 for the Magnum "light" and Accurate # 9 for more serious loads. {snip}

Off topic, but do you believe the same is true for the 44 Magnum cartridge?

 

[fredj338]

Imo, I doubt the original 125gr loads actually made 1450fps in most 4" guns, probably closer to 1400. Whether your gun makes it with a max load is guess. I have 5 diff 4" 357, all give diff vel with identical,loads, one is always upto 100fps slower.
For lowest flash, I would try aa#9. I can hit 1350fps in 4 of my 4" guns with most of the slower powders; 2400, bluedot, h110 & aa#9. Trying to milk 50fps, why.

 

[boatbum101]

I don't use light bullets in a 357 , but looking at data it might be possible .
VV 4th edition shows with a Horn 125 XTP ,oal of 1.575" , N 110 start load of 16.8grs = 1,601fps , max of 18.4grs compressed load = 1,772fps . With N350 start load of 9.6grs = 1,496fps , max of 10.2 = 1,561fps . Now this is out a 7" barrel & pressures are CIP not SAAMI max limit of 43,500psi . SAAMI is max of 35,000psi .
Hornady 6th Edition with 125 XTP shows a max of 16.1grs N-110 = 1,500fps as does max of W296 @ 20.3grs & H110 max of 19.9grs . These are out an 8" Python at SAAMI max pressure of 35,000psi .
At SAAMI limit I'd say no , CIP limit yes it's possible if your gun is in good mechanical condition & no pressure signs as you work up over a good chronograph . You'll get less flash from VV , RS & Acc powders . 2400 & H110 / W296 are flashy .
125 JHP pushed fast like you want are hard on guns . Your L frame can handle pressure but it will accelerate wear , possible flame cutting , forcing cone errosion & barrel wear . IMHO if you wish to shoot these type loads a bunch get a Ruger .

 

[RDub]

Outstanding feedback everyone. Has anyone experimented with VihtaVuori N110 with 125gn bullets in a 4" revolver? .

I did do a work up with N110 with a 125gr Sierra bullet in the 4" 686 some years back. 18.0grs was as far as I should go. I got around 1365-1380 fps, depending on ambient temps. With the 125gr bullet weight, it didn't keep up with 300-MP or H-110/296. for velocity yield. But, the powder is clean and provides decent accuracy with not a great deal of flash. When we burn this much powder in this length barrel, some flash will always be present. It does a good job with 44 Mag as well.

I have often found VihtaVuori data to be rather optimistic with their numbers. A good chronograph set up properly will tell the real story..

As a side note, you might find this interesting..
I like to do 'pull-downs' with various factory loads, and post them over at the 10mm Forum. The particular round is examined and shot for accuracy. Here is some 357 125gr factory loads;

357 Mag Winchester 125gr JHP Super X - Factory Ammo pull-downs - 10mm-firearms.com

357 Mag REM-UMC 125gr JSP - Factory Ammo pull-downs - 10mm-firearms.com

357 Mag Federal 125gr JHP - Factory Ammo pull-downs - 10mm-firearms.com

357 Mag BuffaloBore Heavy 125gr JHP 19D - Factory Ammo pull-downs - 10mm-firearms.com

A few years before I standardized this method I looked at the Gold Dot 125gr factory load;

https://i.postimg.cc/yYRNKpxB/Speer125-GD.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/TYDz1Zn7/Speer20-8grs.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/1XQDkh2q/Speer-GD-125gr.jpg

So, we see that Win, Rem, and Fed ammo is loaded with 19.5-19.8 grs of a non-canister ball powder.

The Gold Dot load contains 20.8grs of ball powder.

The BB contains 22.4 grs of what ever that is. That is close to Alliants recipe with 300-MP for 125gr bullet weight, but I can't come close to the velocity I get with the BB ammo using 300-MP..
When you light one of those BB rounds off, you know something just happened!

So we can see the main line factory loads, Win, Rem, Fed are loaded rather mild in comparison to 22.0grs of H-110/296.

As you have well stated, having these max loads are fun for occasional use, a steady diet could prematurely ware a gun out.

I lived in LA way back when and went out to the desert to shoot often. Fun times. Have fun.