Loading 9mm jacketed bullets into 357 mag

[nksmfamjp]

I'm a bit confused. SAAMI bore and groove diameters are the same. It is not clear to me why the bullets are not the same. I would try them in a 38/357.

 

[Forrest r]

My concern would be neck tension on the smaller .355" bullet.

Typical factory expander buttons are 3/1000th's smaller than the bullet diameter the calibers designed for. Hence the 357mag ='s a .354" expander button.

.354" expander/.355" bullet, not ideal for neck tension. Words like bullet setback and jump will start entering the vocabulary.

The smaller diameter bullet is meaningless in the bbl's. Too small of a bullet and the worst thing that could happen is the bullet tumbles.

 

[max503]

Thanks for all the replies. I think I'll wait and get some 357 bullets.

I wouldn't wait. I would reload them and shoot them. I'd ask the gun how well they are going to work.

Seems I remember they used to make a very high velocity commercial 357 loading. IIRC they used a slightly undersized bullet, maybe to keep pressures down.
Some of the early Super Vel ammo perhaps?
"Super Vel Original"

 

[venomballistics]

Lee factory crimp die might make it happen

 

[colt_saa]

I have been loading and shooting .355 jacketed projectiles in the 380 ACP, 9MM Parabellum, 356TSW, 9x23 Winchester, 38 Super, 38 Special and 357 Magnum Cartridges for decades

For me neck tension is not a problem for several reasons. Early on I had reduced the diameter of the many expander plugs by a .001" or so. I just chock them up in a drill or drill press and use some 400 or 600 grit Emery cloth to get the diameter down.

It is more art than science and I do not measure the result. If the first go was not enough, I did it again removing very little metal each time and always remembering to keep the Emory cloth damp with cutting fluid.

Lee factory crimp die might make it happen

For the 357 Magnum specifically I use the LEE Factory Collet Crimp die. This takes care of the cannelure issue and holds any projectile firmly

This die came out to handle the needs of the Lever Action rifles. I use this same style die in every chambering that LEE offer it.

Unlike the LEE FCD, these LEE Factory Collet Crimp dies do not have a carbide ring to resize the case, they just have a multi segment collet that imparts a deep, symmetrical crimp to the cartridge that is very similar to way ammunition manufacturers crimp their ammunition

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo7p4k36swI[/ame]

 

[DWalt]

There should be no controversy. Of course 9mm bullets can be successfully used in every .38 cartridge (except .38-40). SAAMI specifications for .38 Special and .357 Magnum cartridges allow for using jacketed bullets having a diameter tolerance range of 0.355" to 0.358". As previously noted, there is no crimping groove on a jacketed 9mm bullet, so heavy loadings could produce recoil that might pull other bullets in the chamber forward under inertia. However, there are ways around that. I have loaded 9mm FMJ bullets in .357 loads by seating them more deeply, allowing the case mouth to be slightly rolled over the bullet ogive. How well such loads group is another question which will depend on the specific gun and the specific loading used. To answer that, you will have to experiment.

For many years I have used 0.357-0.358 lead bullets for loading .38 S&W cartridges, and they perform just as well as they do using the "correct" bullet diameter of 0.361.

 

[glenwolde]

Yes, but they produce less than stellar accuracy.

If you use lead bullets you may find that .358 diameter produces better accuracy in the 9mm than .356 diameter. If so, then you have a single bullet you can use in both. Many shooters who load lead bullets in the 9mm use .357 or .358. I use both. I have one that likes .357 and the others .358. 9mm barrels vary rather wildly.

You can also buy .358 lead bullets and just size them down to whatever you want.

But with lead bullets don't go the other way. Lead .356 diameter bullets will lead your barrel up badly. Though I haven't tried coated lead bullets, and I'm not going too. The accuracy just isn't there.

 

[gwpercle]

My concern would be neck tension on the smaller .355" bullet.

Typical factory expander buttons are 3/1000th's smaller than the bullet diameter the calibers designed for. Hence the 357mag ='s a .354" expander button.

.354" expander/.355" bullet, not ideal for neck tension. Words like bullet setback and jump will start entering the vocabulary.

The smaller diameter bullet is meaningless in the bbl's. Too small of a bullet and the worst thing that could happen is the bullet tumbles.

To overcome the neck tension problem ... See post #12 .
There is a way to over come that problem .
I tried to explain it as clearly as I could . Simply use a set of 9mm Luger dies to get the bullet fit and taper crimp .
Gary

 

[max]

Super Vel used smaller diameter bullets to get the higher velocity they wanted.

I've never measured the older Colt .38 or .357 Magnum bores, but as you mentioned, they are considerably tighter than S&Ws which are usually around .357". .355" sounds right for an average for the Colts, but I believe it was gunwriter Ken Waters who stated in an article that some of the Colt barrels were as tight as .354". Regardless, I use cast bullets of .3575" to .358" in all .38 Special and .357 Magnum revolvers. They work fine and are accurate. .355" 9mm bullets would probably work well in the older Colts.

I wound up with some Super Vel 110 grain .38 / .357 jacketed bullets years ago. Super Vel sold component bullets but I don't know how popular they were. I don't recall the diameter but they were noticeably undersize for .38 caliber. To use them I would have had to change the adjustments on my dies which I chose not to do for a partial box of bullets. Undersize bullets may lower pressure but I'm not sure they would do much for accuracy.

 

[rockquarry]

Super Vel used smaller diameter bullets to get the higher velocity they wanted.

I think it was actually done to keep pressure down; whether undersized bullet would provide a higher velocity, I don't know. Many assume the old Super Vel .38s of pre-+P days were the hottest thing going, but as for pressures, they were fourth or fifth in line behind various Remington, Speer-DWM, and Norma loads.

Regarding actual velocities, the Speer-DWM 125 gr. and the Remington 125 gr. had about the same muzzle velocities as the Super Vel 110 gr.

 

[TexasViking]

From a related experiment after Cor Bon introduced a 115 gr. load in .38+P some years ago, I found that .355" JHPs weren't large enough in dia for .38 Special cases without adding some time consuming steps. They fit a good bit tighter in .357 Magnum cases. If you don't mind the labor, trimming .357 Mag cases to .38 Special length will work even better because the case-walls thicken as you travel down the case. It is also a method you can use to segregate these cases for your "Special" loads since after the trimming labor you're likely to load them multiple times, making it easier to distinguish them. I mostly use 124 gr. JHPs in 9 x 19mm, so they're what I've used most in loads that were defense oriented, not intended for target grade accuracy. I've done a lot of load development with 147 gr. JHP loads in 9 x19mm including +P, but I can't say for sure if they would fit in a shortened .357 Mag case without bulging. Since the 147 gr. XTP has a boat-tail that would help. Maybe the longer bullet shank might aid in using a slightly undersized bullet for the .357" bore.

 

[71vette]

I did some load development work on another board with 147gr Speer Gold Dot G2 bullets in 38 Special +P. The thread started by another poster was intending to re-create the Federal 38 Special +P+ 147gr Hydrashock FBI load from I believe the '90's.

It used a 147gr 9mm Hydrashock bullet at about 1kfps from a 4" barrel. With the Speer G2's (from American Reloading) I was able to get 1k fps with a healthy dose of HS-6 (at +P pressures per GRT) and ended up using a Lee FCD to keep the bullets from moving. They shot just fine out of three different revolvers.

The other poster loaded up some in 357 Magnum with a max charge of HP-38 and got over 1100fps out of a 2.75" M66.

 

[TexasViking]

I did some load development work on another board with 147gr Speer Gold Dot G2 bullets in 38 Special +P. The thread started by another poster was intending to re-create the Federal 38 Special +P+ 147gr Hydrashock FBI load from I believe the '90's.

It used a 147gr 9mm Hydrashock bullet at about 1kfps from a 4" barrel. With the Speer G2's (from American Reloading) I was able to get 1k fps with a healthy dose of HS-6 (at +P pressures per GRT) and ended up using a Lee FCD to keep the bullets from moving. They shot just fine out of three different revolvers.

The other poster loaded up some in 357 Magnum with a max charge of HP-38 and got over 1100fps out of a 2.75" M66.

I should back up a little. I have a proprietary cartridge that I won't get into here for obvious reasons. But case length is similar to what I described in shortening .357 Mag cases for 9mm bullets. And I should have pointed out that I got into this back when REM and WIN 9mm bulk JHPs were just over $40/k, 124 gr. Golden Sabers were about $45, and I had an excess of 9mm JHP bullets.
I remembered that I have, in fact, found that the 9mm 147 gr. XTP will fit, but I didn't follow through by actually making rounds. Just wanted to know if it could be done without case bulging because, as I mentioned, the longer shank of a 147 gr. XTP should help stabilize it in the bore a bit better. But at today's prices, I certainly didn't have enough to tinker with! And because it has a boattail, the 147 gr, XTP has a shorter shank that most 147 gr. JHPs.

 

[71vette]

Here's my load data for the 38 Special +P 147gr work that I did with another member on ARFCOM. Obviously use at your own risk!

147gr Speer G2 Gold Dot seated to 1.40" COAL.
7.5gr HS-6, CCI Small Pistol Magnum primers

3.25" Smith 66 965fps
2.5" Smith 66 905fps
2" Smith 64 865fps


The 357 Magnum loadings (that I have not tried) are the following:

147gr Federal HST (American Reloading) seated to 1.587" COAL
7.1gr HP-38, Small Pistol Primers

2.75" Smith 66 1130fps

Same COAL and Bullet loaded with 16.0gr of Ramshot Enforcer

2.75" Smith 66 1275fps

Personally I think the Enforcer load is a little hot. The 38 Special HS-6 load has some "juice" when shot from the 2" 64. That's the only 38 Special I've shot it from. Everything else has been a Magnum revolver.

ETA - the 1k from a 4" is a "SWAG". I need to shoot that load from one of my 4" guns over the chrono to test but based on how it was tracking from 2" to 3.25" I'd expect it to hit 1k fps.