jerry52
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What does everybody think of loading two micro hst followed by three underwood 150 gr wad cuters
Loads for 642
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Unfortunately, I would not trust the Underwood.
I carried their self defense ammo for several years until this past summer.
During an outdoor session, I had 14 dead primers in 9MM, 357, and 38 wadcutters.
These were all self defense loads.
Happened with multiple guns and shooters.
I tried to contact them through their website twice. No reply.
I will never trust their ammo again.
I carried their self defense ammo for several years until this past summer.
During an outdoor session, I had 14 dead primers in 9MM, 357, and 38 wadcutters.
These were all self defense loads.
Happened with multiple guns and shooters.
I tried to contact them through their website twice. No reply.
I will never trust their ammo again.
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Forgot to add…..
All my ammo is stored in a cool dry place and not exposed to lube or solvents.
All my ammo is stored in a cool dry place and not exposed to lube or solvents.
Micro HST got discontinued a few years back, reportedly for inconsistent accuracy from batch to batch. The new Hydra Shok Deep looks promising.
I wouldn't stagger different kinds of ammunition. You want a round with adequate penetration for every round. Remember that 12" of gel penetration is not necessarily 12" of human body penetration. Bodies are made of more elastic materials (skin, organs besides the liver and brain), and more durable structures like bone.
Big expansion and deep penetration is a bit iffy from snubnose length barrels, but a JHP that fails to expand (like the old Hydra Shok) and penetrates deeper would be preferable to one that opens up big and has shallow penetration. You may need a bullet to pass through an arm and into a torso. In the 1986 Miami shootout, one of FBI Agent Jerry Dove's 9mm Winchester Silvertip 115 gr JHP expanded, passed through bank robber Michael Platt's arm and a lung, but stopped an inch shy of his heart. This was an eventual fatal wound, but Platt was able to kill Agents Dove and Ben Grogan before he was incapacitated.
So, besides adequate penetration, you want something that shoots to your sights. Between Tom Givens' student data, and thousands of videos reviewed by Active Self Protection, we know that a minority of CC shootings start inside 3 yards. 3-7 is more likely, and shots exchanged past 7 yards are not unusual. I know some will say that they plan to hip/point shoot, but those badass gunfighter cops from a century ago who were 'hip shooting' used a crouched shooting stance with their shooting hand extended forward in line with their upper chest, allowing them to use the revolver barrel and/or front sight as a visual index in the lower part of their field of view. If you've got enough time to do that, you've probably got enough time to get a sight picture.
I've heard different things about whether or not modern J-frames are regulated to 158 gr standard pressure ammo like they were decades ago. However, even if they are, different examples of the same model may prefer different bullets, and your grip/recoil management comes in to play as well.
I wouldn't stagger different kinds of ammunition. You want a round with adequate penetration for every round. Remember that 12" of gel penetration is not necessarily 12" of human body penetration. Bodies are made of more elastic materials (skin, organs besides the liver and brain), and more durable structures like bone.
Big expansion and deep penetration is a bit iffy from snubnose length barrels, but a JHP that fails to expand (like the old Hydra Shok) and penetrates deeper would be preferable to one that opens up big and has shallow penetration. You may need a bullet to pass through an arm and into a torso. In the 1986 Miami shootout, one of FBI Agent Jerry Dove's 9mm Winchester Silvertip 115 gr JHP expanded, passed through bank robber Michael Platt's arm and a lung, but stopped an inch shy of his heart. This was an eventual fatal wound, but Platt was able to kill Agents Dove and Ben Grogan before he was incapacitated.
So, besides adequate penetration, you want something that shoots to your sights. Between Tom Givens' student data, and thousands of videos reviewed by Active Self Protection, we know that a minority of CC shootings start inside 3 yards. 3-7 is more likely, and shots exchanged past 7 yards are not unusual. I know some will say that they plan to hip/point shoot, but those badass gunfighter cops from a century ago who were 'hip shooting' used a crouched shooting stance with their shooting hand extended forward in line with their upper chest, allowing them to use the revolver barrel and/or front sight as a visual index in the lower part of their field of view. If you've got enough time to do that, you've probably got enough time to get a sight picture.
I've heard different things about whether or not modern J-frames are regulated to 158 gr standard pressure ammo like they were decades ago. However, even if they are, different examples of the same model may prefer different bullets, and your grip/recoil management comes in to play as well.
gwpercle
Member
When it comes to self-defense ...
I believe and practice ...
One Gun
One Load
One Aiming Point
One Point og Impast
and lots of practice with that one gun and one load !
I can tell you from experience... things happen fast in a gunfight and you don't have time to Think about what load is in what chamber and when / how to adjust POA forthe different POI's for the different loads ... Close Does't Count !!!.
Only hits count and misses will get you killed... just no time for thinking in a "situation" !
Gary
rockquarry
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To-the-point practical post with very good advice.
Personally, I like what I've seen from tests of the Fed. Hydra-shok deep and have chosen to carry that in my .38's (if they hit to POA). They don't really expand like a traditional HP, but that's what helps them get to 12"+ of penetration.
But as mentioned, find a round that works in your gun and stick to it.
But as mentioned, find a round that works in your gun and stick to it.
You should probably listen to beju and not me!
However I can tell you the rationale that I have understood from those who say they practice mixing various types and weights of projectiles. There is no point to argue with me, as I only relate what I have read and cannot determine that this rationale is sound.
Tissue Destruction Theory-
Of all theories of handgun wound effectiveness, this theory is least understood and certainly discounted and disregarded amongst members of the self defense community. Among those who hold to it there is agreement that multiple rounds must hit to induce the effect. Some who hold to the idea will carry the Judge revolver loaded with SD shells which feature both pellets and a slug, or BB’s and disks. Some who carry the 38 j frame are expecting to dump the entire cylinder and then depart the combat. Think “servings”. The 38 snub holds one serving of five rounds.
Shot Placement Theory-
There is believed to be a significant element of chance involved in this. More shots more chances. Mixture of rounds means more kinds of chances to them. Some have even utilized certain brands of ammo because they are unreliable expanders. Shoot five rounds of Hornady XTP and three will over penetrate and two will under penetrate. This is what they want. (!?)
First impression is that the OP, Jerry, has already accepted the mixing of rounds theoretically and is now asking about a particular way of doing it. This proposal is unlike others I have heard in that he does not include a barrier penetrator in his mix, and he is not staggering them as is usual. For example a man loads a hollow point, then a FMC, then a wad cutter. He delivers a serving of three and then assesses the effect. I read one man who plans to assess after every shot. Another man said if he had to shoot through a barrier he would shoot three rounds so as to get to his FMC round.
In response to the original question, given for the sake of argument the rationale above is acceptable, I would simply ask, “Would the order of the stagger matter if you plan to run the whole cylinder?” You have chosen two reliably expanding under penetrators, the micro HST rounds, with three reliable over penetrators, the 150 wadcutters.
Are you asking which should come first?
Are you asking if I think you should use three HST and only 2 WAC’s or stagger them another way?
Correction and contradiction is cheerfully welcomed.
Kind Regards!
Brian D
However I can tell you the rationale that I have understood from those who say they practice mixing various types and weights of projectiles. There is no point to argue with me, as I only relate what I have read and cannot determine that this rationale is sound.
Tissue Destruction Theory-
Of all theories of handgun wound effectiveness, this theory is least understood and certainly discounted and disregarded amongst members of the self defense community. Among those who hold to it there is agreement that multiple rounds must hit to induce the effect. Some who hold to the idea will carry the Judge revolver loaded with SD shells which feature both pellets and a slug, or BB’s and disks. Some who carry the 38 j frame are expecting to dump the entire cylinder and then depart the combat. Think “servings”. The 38 snub holds one serving of five rounds.
Shot Placement Theory-
There is believed to be a significant element of chance involved in this. More shots more chances. Mixture of rounds means more kinds of chances to them. Some have even utilized certain brands of ammo because they are unreliable expanders. Shoot five rounds of Hornady XTP and three will over penetrate and two will under penetrate. This is what they want. (!?)
First impression is that the OP, Jerry, has already accepted the mixing of rounds theoretically and is now asking about a particular way of doing it. This proposal is unlike others I have heard in that he does not include a barrier penetrator in his mix, and he is not staggering them as is usual. For example a man loads a hollow point, then a FMC, then a wad cutter. He delivers a serving of three and then assesses the effect. I read one man who plans to assess after every shot. Another man said if he had to shoot through a barrier he would shoot three rounds so as to get to his FMC round.
In response to the original question, given for the sake of argument the rationale above is acceptable, I would simply ask, “Would the order of the stagger matter if you plan to run the whole cylinder?” You have chosen two reliably expanding under penetrators, the micro HST rounds, with three reliable over penetrators, the 150 wadcutters.
Are you asking which should come first?
Are you asking if I think you should use three HST and only 2 WAC’s or stagger them another way?
Correction and contradiction is cheerfully welcomed.
Kind Regards!
Brian D
rockquarry
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Primarily sedentary textbook-type gunfighting theory with hitting the target relegated to a most secondary role.
Being a geezer retired cop from way back. I believe in J frames with loads of practice and free, for me, wadcutter bullets. Thousands. We loaded our own. To this day I carry hot hardcast. Cut through tissue and bleed out, front and rear. Extra ammo is SWC in a speed strip. Some times now those FTX. The pointy tips really help with reloads.
Oh yeah. A 442 or 340 PD. Don't like a shiny gun. Keep it low key.
Oh yeah. A 442 or 340 PD. Don't like a shiny gun. Keep it low key.
walkin' trails
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This is from my more recent observations. I have three steel frame, prelock Js, one three-inch and two two-inch. Anything less than a 148 grain, at least in terms of various ammo land bullet weights I’ve tried, does not shoot POA. I recently bought a new 642-2 HH edition. It doesn’t seem to like the 110 and 120 grain stuff in terms of accuracy, and not really sure about the 130 grainFMJ cause I haven’t yet fired much of it.
I’ve got to say that this post really sums it all up. In SHTF situation, even if sights are consciously utilized, no one has time or needs the added stress of applying Kentucky Windage.
I have never seen any real benefit of staggered loadings. Stick with one carry load. There will, if nothing else, be less confusion and possible accusations about her follow in the aftermath of having to “get someone off you.”
Back in the early seventies, when I was rookie firefighter, I had several friends who were police officers in our city. They used wadcutters for the reasons you stated. I carry them in my 442, have in my SP101 and in my .32 snubby. IMHO, if a wadcutter isn't going to affect a bad guy, it's unlikely anything else will either and it's unlikely that I am going to encounter any situation that five or six shots won't take care of.
I don’t see a problem with alternating loads.
Any attacker worth shooting once is worth shooting twice. At least.
With at least one hollow point and one FMJ hit you get penetration AND expansion.
The FMJ’s I use are Winchester 115 grain Flat Points. Some tests show the flat points penetrate better, surprisingly, and produce a slightly larger wound channel and are less likely to glance off bone.
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