Locking the bolt of Winchester's 1897 shotgun?

[Naphtali]

I have Browning's isometric cutaway drawings on the first page of his patent application. It appears that the shell carrier pivots from its rear on its carrier pin. Front of carrier secures breech bolt by mating to a projection under the front of the bolt. So instead of the breech bolt locking itself to the receiver or to a barrel extension, it locks to the carrier that locks to . . . what?

Pivoting shell carrier is held in position by the carrier pin (.250-inch pin??). The pin doesn't appear to be sturdy enough to be the single part that allows carrier to lock breech bolt while withstanding the cumulative stress of having 500k shot shells run through its 1897 action.

The carrier has several projecting portions of it that do several things. I do not understand what are the functions of some of these lugs and projections. I would think that it would be a good idea to have the back or the bottom rear of the carrier abut the rear of the 1897's receiver. What I mean is that something at the rear or bottom of the carrier behind its carrier pin should mate to the receiver to accept the stress of firing. And the carrier pin should serve as a pivot pin, perhaps accepting a small amount of firing stress. But I cannot confirm that the rear of the receiver has mass necessary to support the carrier during firing the shotgun.

Not having disassembled a Winchester Model 1897 pump shotgun, I request help in understanding how the mechanism locks breech bolt for firing.

 

[growr]

Post this same question on the SASS website and you will get a lot of great information from folks that use the '97 hard. There is also a great DVD that is available...will get the contact information for you from my friend in Miles City that has it.
If you can make contact with either Garrison Joe or Johnny Meadows on the SASS website you will have some of the best '97 smiths available.

Randy
AKA "Bugler"

 

[growr]

Found the site for Johnny Meadows.

Jim Peoble AKA: Johnny Meadows
Email: [email protected]
Phone: 928-300-6684
Fax: 928-567-3764

Camp Verde Gun and Repair
1074 Amber Way
Camp Verde, Arizona 86322

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I have two 97's a 1904 and a 1954. I have never thought to question the lock-up system on either of them. the previous owners survived the unsupported design for about 99 years before I bought the first gun. They used and abused it, broke the buttstock, carve a dog's portrait in it, carved and scratched initials on it. Used in rain and snow and mud up to their butts. But neither they or I doubted that the system would work this time or the next or the next 500 or 5000 times!
There are many better systems of mechanical advantage for the lock up system. But for some reason, the 97 has a great following! And that is on a gun that Winchester took out of production 60 years ago! Most hunting guns only cycle 50 to 100 times a year, but my 1904 gets used about 1000 to 1500 a year for Cowboy Action Shooting.

The greatest known failings are the exterior mounted ejector and the sear contact notches get worn off. Both are easy fixes and parts are still available!

The Chinese decided there was money to be made making this design, but they have a little trouble getting the fit correct all the time.

The Skeet and Trap crowd seem to prefer the Model 12, but for taking rough use the king is the 991

I really don't know much about my 1954. I bought it as a replacement for when the 1904 gives up the ghost. It is in like new condition and may stay that way for another 40 or 50 years!

Ivan

 

[Alk8944]

Shotguns operate at relatively low pressure, 9,000 PSI or lower. The 1897 action is more than adequate for the operating pressure it has to deal with. The issue is simply that you do not understand the design well enough to evaluate it. The 1897 is stronger than many later designs.

 

[2152hq]

'The rounded rear portion of the cartridge carrier rotates in a matching radiused cut out in the back end of the rec'vr.
The front end of the carrier is what locks the bolt shut by positioning itself up and under the L shaped underside of the breech bolt as it is pulled shut.

When in place, the heavy carrier is then the locking bolt and transmits the force from the breech bolt back to the frame. All very stout and strong designed parts.'

This is the same answ I posted to the same question you asked on Accurate Reloading on 5/21.
Don't know what else to say.
Maybe you just don't believe it.

I'll add this to the explanation,,
Here's pic of the carrier,,look at the rear end of it.
Click on the schematic,, then again to enlarge it and look at part #68,,the carrier.
Winchester 1897 Parts | Classic Old West Arms

The rear surface is radiused and the pivot pin goes through the center of the radius as well as through the frame.
Inside the frame, there is a matching radiused socket that the carrier sits in and solidly abuts up to. You'll have to trust me on that I guess as I can't find a pic of that and I'm not going to take a 97 apart right now.

That abutment takes the force of the shot, not the pin when in battery. The pin is just there to facilitate the movement of the parts during cycling. It is not that close fitting that it takes any of the force during a shot..

Hope this helps..

 

[growr]

great answer to the OP's question!! Even I almost understand it.........
Randy

 

[Drm50]

I've owned dozens of 97s and will buy them when I come across
a good deal. I never thought about bolt lock up either and have
had many apart. The way I check them is put on half cock and
put pressure on Trigger. Sometimes worn ones will fail and the
hammer will fall. That doesn't happen very often but if you see
a lot of movement in hammer while doing this you will be in
the market for new sear. I have only got one 97 at present and
it is a 56. Excellent condition, I rescued it from a Bubba job and
saved 24" of barrel. It now has screw in Winchokes. No collector
value but a better gun than you can buy today. Gun hasn't been
broken in, it's still stiff as a new one. Use to be fairly cheap
until Cowboy shooters inflated the prices.

 

[Pig Hunter]

P.O Ackley re-barreled one to 30-06. No changes to the action. The firing of cartridges at this pressure level was a non-event.

 

[Naphtali]

Many thanks, guys. Since I didn't know the difficulty of finding the answer, I created threads on three "gunsmithing" subforums. And I got the answer to my question on all of them. Despite finding the answer being relatively easy to find, I appreciate everyone for taking the time to take a look at their 1897s for me.

 

[ParadiseRoad]

...it appears the carrier pin is what takes the thrust of firing...

...the shear strength of steel pins is pretty high...break action shotguns are held together by the hinge pin...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TcKRmuOCrk[/ame]

 

[Naphtali]

...it appears the carrier pin is what takes the thrust of firing...

...the shear strength of steel pins is pretty high...break action shotguns are held together by the hinge pin..

It took me a while to stop action the "x-ray" view to see that it is not the carrier pin resisting firing stress. There is a distinct convex from the receiver fitting to a distinct matching concave on the rear of the carrier. My parts isometric drawings confirms the concave at the rear of carrier. As I wrote, being able to detect this relationship of these two areas is not easy. I was not able to detect it regardless how many times I repeated the video as a moving picture. Video must run stop action for me to see what I wanted to see.