Long barrel 1914 S&W .455 revolver

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Hi all - I'm new to the forum. I have a virtually mint condition .455. Is it safe to fire Fiocchi .45 short ammunition through it ? I inherited it with 30 .450 short (corto) greased rounds from 1976 in the case with it...

I received new info regarding the above firearm - it must be a post 1916 MkII hand ejector model.
The name "Smith&Wesson" engraved on the side of the barrel does not have any caliber markings after it as in most of the photo's I have seen. I was told by my father that it is a .455 and there is what I assume to be a Webley .455 MkII cartridge along with the Fiocchi .450 cartridges in the case. All very confusing.
 
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Welcome. I had a similar problem recently. I found a couple of boxes of 450 corto but I passed on them. I waited until I could locate some .455 MarkII. It is occassionaly manufactured by Hornaday and Fiochi. I got some Hornaday 455 by going to gun shows. It can be over a 1$ a round when found. If you want to shoot it much, reloading is the way to go. We love pictures, please post one if you can.
 
Hi all - I'm new to the forum. I have a virtually mint condition .455. Is it safe to fire Fiocchi .45 short ammunition through it ? I inherited it with 30 .450 short (corto) greased rounds from 1976 in the case with it...

YES. 450 was often used as a light target load in 455 revolvers. Fiocchi 450 is rather hot for old 450 revolvers designed for black powder, but you 455 S&W is msde of sterner stuff!

Peter
 
The 455 Mk II Smith TL revolver 1st models; the conversions (from 44 Spl) and the c. 5000 1st contract guns as well as the non-TL 2nd models are all chambered the same. They are chambered for the 455 Mk I, a black powder round, and the 455 Colt, a smokeless round the same length as the Mk I, both of which are longer than the 455 Mk II, a more modern shorter round for greater efficiency with its smokeless powder loading. The 455 Mk II is what all 455 Smiths were intended to use even though the chambers are long enough for the earlier rounds.

Therefore the shorter 455 Mk II headspaces on the rim. The 45 ACP happens to be the same length as the longer 455 Colt and 455 Mk I, and its taper crimped case will chamber in 455 Smiths by headspacing on the case mouth. Also it extends out of the chamber the same amount as any of the 455 rimmed cartridges and therefore exactly the correct amount for proper spacing to the breechface and reliable firing pin ignition.

What does this all mean? It means that you can safely fire the much CHEAPER and much more AVAILABLE 45 ACP in a 455 chambered Smith revolver! Of course you can not use 1/2 or full moon clips and the ejector star will not eject the cases. However the ACP case in standard loadings will usually fall from the chambers or at least far enough to grip with the fingers. At worst they can be poked out with a pencil.

As was said by another poster above, the Smiths are made of sterner stuff. For sure there is no concern w/45 ACP standard loadings and probably any 45 ACP factory load. But as a conservative measure, I stick to the standard loadings.
 
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Those .455's were not heat-treated as were our M-1917's. If the above post is correct in that .45 ACP can be fired in them, I'd keep in mind that they weren't proofed for those higher pressures.

But some have been converted to .45 ACP and to .45 Colt, so people get away with it. I probably wouldn't do it.
 
It may be a moot point now! I just found out that 455s don't have chambers, they have charge holes (no shoulder in the chamber) and 45 ACPs fall too far in. I must have a non-standard cylinder that I need to check out.

Maybe that's why conversion to 45 Colt was so common; rechambering wasn't needed, just recess the chamber slightly for part of the thickness of the Colt rim or shave the rear of the cylinder.

I believe the pressure of the 455 and the ACP are in the same ballpark, around 14,000 CUP.
 
To get a .455 cylinder to accept .45 Colt still requires a little reaming. While the cylinder doesn't have a headspacing shoulder, it does have a slight throat toward the front. This throat needs to be relieved a little to let the longer 45 Colt to chamber all the way in. (In addition to doing something, as stated, to allow for the slightly thicker rim of the Colt. But nowhere near as much as has to be done to use .45ACP or Auto Rim.)
 
"I received new info regarding the above firearm - it must be a post 1916 MkII hand ejector model.
The name "Smith&Wesson" engraved on the side of the barrel does not have any caliber markings after it as in most of the photo's I have seen. I was told by my father that it is a .455 and there is what I assume to be a Webley .455 MkII cartridge along with the Fiocchi .450 cartridges in the case. All very confusing"

Yes it is confusing. If you get 455Webley or 450corto you will be good to go. You have either a 1st model or a 2nd Model.

First Model.
SW44HE1st455.jpg


Second Model.
SW455second.jpg


The diffference is the ejector rod housing, the 1st model has it and the 2nd model doesn't. I would ask for a serial number but the serial numbers for these are confusing too.
 
It may be a moot point now! I just found out that 455s don't have chambers, they have charge holes (no shoulder in the chamber) and 45 ACPs fall too far in. I must have a non-standard cylinder that I need to check out.

Maybe that's why conversion to 45 Colt was so common; rechambering wasn't needed, just recess the chamber slightly for part of the thickness of the Colt rim or shave the rear of the cylinder.

I believe the pressure of the 455 and the ACP are in the same ballpark, around 14,000 CUP.

Without looking, I recall that .45ACP runs about 19,000, and .45 Colt 14,000. Never saw .455 pressures.

Just read an old article in Handloader by Brian Pearce that lists .44-40 loads in the 13,000 range. That was normal then, the larger cases evidently giving less pressure than the smaller .45 ACP case.The ACP also had to generate high enough pressures to operate the gun, usually an autoloader.
 
I believe the pressure of the 455 and the ACP are in the same ballpark, around 14,000 CUP.

Not so! The Service pressure of the 45 ACP exceeds the Proof pressure of the 455. It is defintely not a good idea to shoot 45 ACP in a Webley, but I don't know about the Smith. However, the post about the 1917 S&Ws having heat treated cylinders should sound a warning I would think.

Peter
 
I would be reluctant to fire the .450 Corto in it, at least until I knew when and where it was made. My concern would be that it is corrosive and can cause problems if the revolver is not promptly and completely cleaned after firing this ammunition. To boot, you may get misfires or handfires, which can be a serious concern in a revolver. :eek:

Cabellas had some Hornady .455 Mk II last time I was there. Fiocchi currently makes these as well, so there is no need to shoot the old, possibly unreliable ammunition. Besides, that old stuff may be collectable.
 
Without looking, I recall that .45ACP runs about 19,000, and .45 Colt 14,000. Never saw .455 pressures.

Just read an old article in Handloader by Brian Pearce that lists .44-40 loads in the 13,000 range. That was normal then, the larger cases evidently giving less pressure than the smaller .45 ACP case.The ACP also had to generate high enough pressures to operate the gun, usually an autoloader.

My handloads never exceed 14,000 in 45 ACP. 455 Mk II is 14,000. But upon rechecking you're correct, factory 45 ACP is between 20-21,000.

Thank you,
 
My handloads never exceed 14,000 in 45 ACP. 455 Mk II is 14,000. But upon rechecking you're correct, factory 45 ACP is between 20-21,000.

Thank you,


Hondo-

You're very welcome! I'm glad to have helped. :)

Do you even shoot .45 ACP in autos? Do you get reliable operation at those lower pressures? I insist that .45 ACP work autos and give modern ballistics, no matter the gun in which it's fired.

Pressure measuring has changed from when CUP replaced PSI figures. My 19,000 figure may be from the older system. I'd have to look it up, and I haven't reloaded in years. Most here probably don't, which is why FACTORY pressure figures are so important. Handloaders usually know what they're doing, and SHOULD understand the limitations of their older guns.

But some don't! Even the famous gun writer Skeeter Skelton overloaded a Colt M-1917 .45 with a heavy charge of Unique. He got a cracked chamber.
 
Hondo-

You're very welcome! I'm glad to have helped. :)

Do you even shoot .45 ACP in autos? Do you get reliable operation at those lower pressures? I insist that .45 ACP work autos and give modern ballistics, no matter the gun in which it's fired.

Pressure measuring has changed from when CUP replaced PSI figures. My 19,000 figure may be from the older system. I'd have to look it up, and I haven't reloaded in years. Most here probably don't, which is why FACTORY pressure figures are so important. Handloaders usually know what they're doing, and SHOULD understand the limitations of their older guns.

But some don't! Even the famous gun writer Skeeter Skelton overloaded a Colt M-1917 .45 with a heavy charge of Unique. He got a cracked chamber.

Texas Star,

I do shoot 45 Auto loaders, an original 1911 from WW I, a ’57 era A1 government model and a pair of factory Colt Gold cups; one from ’68 with the lightened slide and a 70 Series from ’76 w/the heavy slide Colt returned to. However they are not my go to defense guns, which is a 296 L frame 5 shot in 44 Spl. So I do not shoot much hardball but when I do it’s from the gov’t model. The Gold Cups are from my Bullseye shooting days and get a steady diet of cast lead bullets in my reloads. Six grains of 231 w/200 gr bullet (14,000) is the hottest I shoot so it does function the Gold Cups of course, but my other Colt’s autos as well. I’ve not had a problem with loads as low as 5 grs Unique w/same bullet in all guns. I just don’t need a lot of recoil and when I do, I shoot the 500 or 296 w/defensive loads.

I generally shoot only my Unique reloads in revolvers; the 455 TL, 1917 and ’50 Target. Same as my ACP loads but in rimmed cases because I don’t like dealing with moon clips; either 45 AR but mostly cut down 45 Schofield cases trimmed to ACP length in the 17 and 50, I call them my 45 S&W Specials. ACP cases in the 455 as mentioned above in an earlier post. I found out my 455 cylinder is modified to shoot ACP w/o clips and still shoot 455s w/its thin rim.

Yes CUP has changed to PSI and I’ve done the math to convert figures and sometimes they seem to come out right but in some calibers the conversion just makes no sense. So I’m pretty conservative and stay at comfortable levels; I like my guns too much!
 
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I'm working from memory here so I could be off a bit but I remember
the article by Skeeter Skelton about cracking a 1917 revolver chamber.
The gun was, as I recall, a 1917 S&W and the load was 7.5 grs Unique
under a Keith 255 gr SWC. It was a load recommended by Keith but a
bit much for an old 1917.
 
I'm working from memory here so I could be off a bit but I remember
the article by Skeeter Skelton about cracking a 1917 revolver chamber.
The gun was, as I recall, a 1917 S&W and the load was 7.5 grs Unique
under a Keith 255 gr SWC. It was a load recommended by Keith but a
bit much for an old 1917.


I think this is a different gun, although the same load. The Colt was sold to a friend, who soon brought it back with the damage. I think he swore to firing only a few rounds of factory ammo, and accused Skelton of pounding the gun with heavy loads, which made it fail. Skelton took it back, agreeing that this was probably the case.

I knew Elmer Keith slightly, had breakfast with him at a press function at the NRA convention and talked with him extensively on a few other occasions. I think I've read all of his material.

I liked Elmer and got on very well with him. I think he meant what he wrote and was honest. But he had no way to measure pressure, other than looking for hard extraction and cratered primers. Most of his loads were developed well before handloaders even had chronographs. He did have the H.P. White Lab chrono some of his loads.

I think he was often skating closer to the edge than he realized. One of his .45 Colt guns blew the rear of the barrel, in THREE places! That was on a SAA, in the 1920's. He then went to the .44 Special, where he had thicker cylinder chambers. I don't know how old the SAA was, but he presumably had sense enough not to fire that ammo in a black powder-rated gun. Colt's later guns are stronger, but I'd still use common sense in loading for them.

I doubt that M-1917 .45's should be fired with ammo much hotter than standard pressure stuff. I wouldn't even shoot modern Plus P ammo in one. The postwar .45's are stronger, but don't how much so.

With the Triple Lock and Second Model .455's, I wouldn't load hotter than standard factory ammo. By the early 1920's, the Second Models were being heat-treated, as was the Third Model, made mainly for Wolf & KLar. I think it arrived in 1926. But a 250 grain Keith bullet has more bearing surface in the barrel than a normal RN bullet, I bet, and raises pressures a little.To avoid shaking the gun loose prematurely and for safety, I think 950 FPS from a six-inch barrel is enough to ask of handloads. A load with that bullet at 900 FPS should be enough for most needs, maybe to 1,000 FPS for special needs, especially in postwar guns.
Keith was loading to 1,200 FPS

A lot of people used his loads and didn't blow up the guns, but I bet they were at or above proof pressures in many cases.
 
It may be a moot point now! I just found out that 455s don't have chambers, they have charge holes (no shoulder in the chamber) and 45 ACPs fall too far in. I must have a non-standard cylinder that I need to check out.


I've posted this pic before which gives a good view of the original 455 chambers with the very sloped sholder.
One contains a factory 45 ACP round pushed as far as it will go.


handejector-albums-more-1-picture6605-img-4704.jpg
 

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