Thanks for that info, I just received a 5lb jug of clean shot from my neighbors estate.
Looking for a cleaner 38 special load
- Thread starter Sigquick
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Thanks for that info, I just received a 5lb jug of clean shot from my neighbors estate.
bruce381
Member
some forum guy called bullseye flaming dirt LOl yeah that's true 231/HP38 is less dirty but also sticky I have been using Clays is it clean you will like it.
Odd, never really found bullseye & coated bullets dirty.
A 400+ round range session with a 686 shooting 38spl's. 158gr coated fn hp & 3.3gr of bullseye.
Never cleaned anything, a couple weeks later I took the same revolver/bullseye 38spl load out and ran another 200+ rounds thru that 686.
No leading and 1 wet patch of hoope's #9 cleans everything.
I'd be taking a hard look at your crimp, more pointedly the lack thereof. The short start pressure of a load is extremely important. Good neck tension and crimp makes for a better/more consistent short start pressure. The end result is a better cleaner burn and increased accuracy.
What my typical reloads look like. +/- 3/1000th's neck tension and a good crimp.
Typical 158gr fn hp's seated long (a good solid crimp crimped in bottom crimp groove) in 38spl cases using 3.3gr of bullseye or 3.5gr of international clays.
A 400+ round range session with a 686 shooting 38spl's. 158gr coated fn hp & 3.3gr of bullseye.
Never cleaned anything, a couple weeks later I took the same revolver/bullseye 38spl load out and ran another 200+ rounds thru that 686.
No leading and 1 wet patch of hoope's #9 cleans everything.
I'd be taking a hard look at your crimp, more pointedly the lack thereof. The short start pressure of a load is extremely important. Good neck tension and crimp makes for a better/more consistent short start pressure. The end result is a better cleaner burn and increased accuracy.
What my typical reloads look like. +/- 3/1000th's neck tension and a good crimp.
Typical 158gr fn hp's seated long (a good solid crimp crimped in bottom crimp groove) in 38spl cases using 3.3gr of bullseye or 3.5gr of international clays.
Plated bullets are the happy middle ground between the higher cost of jacketed bullets and avoiding the "dirt" and smoke that comes with cast bullet lube.
I'll argue that most of the dirt shooters complain about with cast bullets is due to the lube not the powders.
The dirt from the powder is also load dependent. For example Unique is often called "flaming dirt" but it's an exceptionally versatile powder. It's also not dirty at all with near max loads. The complaints come from light loads.
It's also relative. I don't mind unburned flake powders as they won't effect function of a pistol or revolver. However, unburned or partially burned particles of colloidal ball powders like H110/Win 296 commonly used in magnum revolver loads will produce unburnt or partially burned grains large enough and hard enough that if they get under the ejector star will prevent it from going all the way back into the cylinder and in turn will prevent the cylinder from going back into the frame.
In a self defense load where a reload might be needed that is a total non starter for me and it's the only "dirt" issue I find to be a concern.
In that regard, I don't think anyone was trying to insult you. Most of us just find the whole dirty powder issue to be irrelevant (with a few exceptions like the H110/Win 296 issue above).
Most of us are not doing stupid stuff like 2000 or 5000 round torture tests to see how long a firearm will function without being cleaned. Those folks hang out over on AR15 dot com.
—-
Again, faster burning fine grained or flake powders like Bullseye and Unique may be sooty, and cast bullet loads can be very sooty, but it's just not an issue even over the course of a few hundred rounds during a day long course, particularly in a revolver. Clean up at night between days is just a wipe down with some solvent and usually just dry brushing or a wet patch or two through the barrel and cylinders before lightly recoiling. It's literally a 5 minute process.
It's the large course grained colloidal ball powders that can be most problematic and create actual reliability issues.
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I have found Clays to be very accurate and extremely clean in both .38 and .45ACP. Used cast bullets.
The Norseman
Member
Vihtavuori Powders
If I was reloading for a clean load I would
use one of the Vihtavuori powders.
V.V N310 and V.V. N320 appear very acceptable
for target reloads and cleanliness.
The Finish made Vihtavuori powders are
high quality. I have found them reasonably
priced and on sale every once in awhile.
I started hoarding these powders now.
Also the average reloader should be using
a crimp, whether light or medium. I always
use the Lee Factory Crimp Dies. I have found
that they contributed to accuracy, cleaner burn,
and holding the bullet a little tighter
in place, doesn't take much.
This has been my experience. The best to
You and your Endeavors.
If I was reloading for a clean load I would
use one of the Vihtavuori powders.
V.V N310 and V.V. N320 appear very acceptable
for target reloads and cleanliness.
The Finish made Vihtavuori powders are
high quality. I have found them reasonably
priced and on sale every once in awhile.
I started hoarding these powders now.
Also the average reloader should be using
a crimp, whether light or medium. I always
use the Lee Factory Crimp Dies. I have found
that they contributed to accuracy, cleaner burn,
and holding the bullet a little tighter
in place, doesn't take much.
This has been my experience. The best to
You and your Endeavors.
Rogeronimo
Member
Rare that I see someone else burning Int'l Clays!Typical 158gr fn hp's seated long (a good solid crimp crimped in bottom crimp groove) in 38spl cases using 3.3gr of bullseye or 3.5gr of international clays.
Lead + wax or Lube
pushed by ANY powder;
will be dirty , no matter the amount of powder used.
copper or "Poly" bullet, will help out some,
but any "Fire" will produse some type of "Soot".
However there is the "Air" gun.
pushed by ANY powder;
will be dirty , no matter the amount of powder used.
copper or "Poly" bullet, will help out some,
but any "Fire" will produse some type of "Soot".
However there is the "Air" gun.
s2harry
Member
good question, answers? amusing...
#1 define "Clean"
#2 seems like everybody's powder is "Clean"
#3 hmm more crimp, yes a little may be just enough to get complete
burn. i remember powder flakes on my towel with light loads.
#4 think ill try AA2 and CFE nex time...but im not a light load guy nowadays.
#1 define "Clean"
#2 seems like everybody's powder is "Clean"
#3 hmm more crimp, yes a little may be just enough to get complete
burn. i remember powder flakes on my towel with light loads.
#4 think ill try AA2 and CFE nex time...but im not a light load guy nowadays.
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I use the commercial Hi-Tek coated cast bullets and HP38. I think it's about as clean as anything. I had an affair with a couple of pounds of WST and it's also excellent. I generally only clean my guns every 400-500 rounds.
If you're getting a lot of lead splatter a round nose bullet will reduce that compared to a SWC.
Right now, HP-38 seems to be one of the easiest powders to find. It's a really good all-around pistol powder for light to medium loads.
If you're getting a lot of lead splatter a round nose bullet will reduce that compared to a SWC.
Right now, HP-38 seems to be one of the easiest powders to find. It's a really good all-around pistol powder for light to medium loads.
My standard load these days is a coated 158gr SWC over four grains of Win244. It's cleaner than my previous lubed lead/HP-38 load. I've been very happy with it.
158gr X-treme/Summit SWC
4gr Win244, 1.46" COAL, Remington SP
17.4" Henry Summit: 1050fps
4" 19-3 Summit: 822fps
4" Trooper MkIII Summit: 820fps
3.25" 66-5 X-Treme: 760fps
3.25" 66-5 Summit: 815fps
2.5" 66-7 X-Treme: 715fps
2.5" 66-7 Summit: 770fps
2" 10-9 Summit: 725fps
2" Magnum Carry X-Treme: 649fps
.
This is the sort of question usually only asked by an extremely in-experienced/new shooter!
So my takeaway is that perceived inexperienced/new shooters should not be asking questions when trying to learn new things? Sadly there are a few of us who didn't knew it all when when we were still in the cradle.
Respectfully
socal s&w
Member
"So my takeaway is that perceived inexperienced/new shooters should not be asking questions when trying to learn new things?"
Thankfully, there are many more helpful folks here than one who isn't.
Thankfully, there are many more helpful folks here than one who isn't.
Just as a note....
I took some cast lead, standard lube in groove rounds to the INDOOR range. I shot a few and was really surprised at how smoky they were. I also got some dismayed comments down the firing line. If you want clean, don't shoot lubed cast lead.
I use the same powders but switched to coated, some plated, some jacketed. MUCH better. Outdoors, I don't care, but I believe that the ventilation in the indoor range is powered by a guy waving a newspaper in front of the air grill.
I took some cast lead, standard lube in groove rounds to the INDOOR range. I shot a few and was really surprised at how smoky they were. I also got some dismayed comments down the firing line. If you want clean, don't shoot lubed cast lead.
I use the same powders but switched to coated, some plated, some jacketed. MUCH better. Outdoors, I don't care, but I believe that the ventilation in the indoor range is powered by a guy waving a newspaper in front of the air grill.
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Ab-so....
Ab-so-frinkin'-lutely! If somebody is being unsafe, that's one thing. But just judging people asking a legitimate question due to some difference in philosophy isn't right. I don't care about dirt or smoke in the slightest. But I posted just above about shooting at an indoor range with minimal ventilation. I prefer NOT to shoot smoky rounds in there if I can help it. And I can help it with good choice of components. Everybody needs to take a step back and examine their comments and weigh their helpfulness against being grumpy old men. I've gotten TONS of help here. And if what I'm doing seems questionable people remind me firmly, but not impolitely, what I need to hear. SOME people may try to get personal about it, but this forum is way too good of a place for educating others to indulge in pettiness.
Ab-so-frinkin'-lutely! If somebody is being unsafe, that's one thing. But just judging people asking a legitimate question due to some difference in philosophy isn't right. I don't care about dirt or smoke in the slightest. But I posted just above about shooting at an indoor range with minimal ventilation. I prefer NOT to shoot smoky rounds in there if I can help it. And I can help it with good choice of components. Everybody needs to take a step back and examine their comments and weigh their helpfulness against being grumpy old men. I've gotten TONS of help here. And if what I'm doing seems questionable people remind me firmly, but not impolitely, what I need to hear. SOME people may try to get personal about it, but this forum is way too good of a place for educating others to indulge in pettiness.
I just got one...
...and it's a very clean shooter.
Gamo Swarm Maxxim .22 cal. It's a darn heavy hitter, too.
...and it's a very clean shooter.
Gamo Swarm Maxxim .22 cal. It's a darn heavy hitter, too.
Coming from an old guy my comment may be a little off topic but relevant to indoor shooting ranges and may not be the case in the one mentioned in this thread. I went to an indoor range near me once and it was obvious to me right away that the ventilation system there was not adequate for having safe air to breathe and I never went back.
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taz666
Member
Hey ... we all have our days ... some good some bad. I'll put up with some of that rather than loosing the brain trust here.
I shoot 158 gr. TC, Campro plated bullets mostly indoors using Titegroup as there's very little smoke/dirt. Totally different story shooting lead. I'm convinced that the lubricant creates the smoke. I like Titegroup mainly because it's on the shelves in Canada and Bullseye and Unique haven't been available for at least a couple of years. I've tried 231 and it seems a little cleaner.
Al
Al
Shoebox1.1
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This^^^^^ AA2 under an extreme plated 158 SWC. 4.0g. Super accurate and clean
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Autonomous
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My very small sample of one is A #2 under coated 148 gr WC.
Cleaner than the Bullseye and 231 I load in .45 ACP.
Cleaner than the Bullseye and 231 I load in .45 ACP.
One way to find out....
Shoot a light load of Unique behind a wax lube in groove cast bullet.
Shoot a light load of Unique behind a wax lube in groove cast bullet.
One way to find out....
Shoot a wax lube-in-groove cast bullet with a light charge of Unique and you'll know right away!
BTW: AT the range I mentioned the smoke doesn't come back at you, but neither does it race away from you either. Another thing they lack is COMFORT A/C. It's often close to the same temperature inside as it is outside. And the lighting is rather poor. The place 'works' but I would call it minimal. Their philosphy is to offer the range cheap, so they can funnel you past all the guns and accessories that they REALLY make their profit on. It's now under new management and I haven't been back since they changed, so we'll see how it goes.
Shoot a wax lube-in-groove cast bullet with a light charge of Unique and you'll know right away!
BTW: AT the range I mentioned the smoke doesn't come back at you, but neither does it race away from you either. Another thing they lack is COMFORT A/C. It's often close to the same temperature inside as it is outside. And the lighting is rather poor. The place 'works' but I would call it minimal. Their philosphy is to offer the range cheap, so they can funnel you past all the guns and accessories that they REALLY make their profit on. It's now under new management and I haven't been back since they changed, so we'll see how it goes.
Wow! such a lot of discussion about something all of us have been experiencing since we began reloading! It seems to bother some more than others, and too much has been written about the "problem"! One thing that maybe hasn't been mentioned... I dunno, as I haven't read all the "discussions"...most powders burn cleanest at chamber pressure higher than ~15,000 psi. .38 Special is said to be designed for 17,000 psi., .38 Spl +P for about 19-20,000. So, load to about those pressures, and clean. Those who are bound and determined to find the ultimate "Mouse, Bunny phart or kitty sneeze" loads...more power to 'em, but be sure they have a sturdy, caliber appropriate rod in their bag! A hammer is a good idea, too! (Don't ask how I know this!)
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