I guess everyone's mileage varies. I use a Zero 158 swaged with 3 grains of Bullseye in a Model 14 and get dead-on accuracy at least out to 25 yards. I thought Alliant's listed maximum is 3.5 grains for a 158 Speer bullet which is also swaged.
Looking for a PPC load for my .38 using Zero bullets and 231
- Thread starter lbm
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boatbum101
Member
Were talking W231 not Bullseye . 3.1 - 3.4 BE should dive same velocity as 3.5 - 3.8 W231 with a Zero swaged 158 SWC / RN .
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Let's not get too off track here. The OP is asking about a 148gr HBWC, not a 158gr SWC.
boatbum101
Member
In post # 19 he asks about 158 SWC load .
Bullseye Smith
Member
We would use 2.2 grs of Bullseye and it would drive tacks. When the sun was just right you could see the round go down range.
I hope I don't hijack or divert the thread, but I've had some leading issues with the Precision Delta 148 hbwc (match lube). I loaded them in 38 special cases (double cannelure-for wadcutters), over 2.7 grains of Bullseye, with about .10" bullet exposed. It leaded the forcing cone of three revolvers I shot it in (SW model 14, SW 27, and Ruger Security Six). Two of those revolvers are 357 chambered. Leading was seen within 10 rounds (two loads of 5 rounds), and I stopped to wire brush out the lead after 15 rounds fired. I bought the "match lube" as it was supposed to be better.
In trying to eliminate leading, I ran a bunch of the PD 148 gr HBWCs through my SAECO 0.360" sizing die with 50/50 NRA lube (beeswax/alox). I set up the lubing to lube both bullet grooves. I also loaded down to 2.5 grains of Bullseye. I reshot. No leading. Accuracy was excellent (5 shot groups that would be covered with a quarter at 50 feet from a two handed rested position).
I realize I changed two variables (lubed bullet and lower powder), but I wanted to eliminate leading. I'll play with it more (lubing one lube, then trying 2.7 grains of Bullseye).
I emailed my leading concern to Precision Delta, and within a few days I received a phone call (in the evening) from someone from PD who wanted to follow up on my concerns. He suggested running 2.9 grains of W231. He said they don't get any leading reports, and the the "match lube" was Rooster Jacket. I thought that was excellent customer service.
I just wish I didn't get leading at the 2.7 gr Bullseye loading. I may try running a batch of bullets with Lee Liquid alox, and let dry, or put a second coat of Rooster Jacket. Prec Delta may have to use a double coat of Rooster jacket themselves.
I haven't shot Zero bullets-can't compare leading to them.
SW CQB 45
Member
Catboat, thanks for posting this. Last year....I loaded 2.8 B/E 148 Remmy's for the season and while accurate, I was frustrated with the slower loading process and dealing with the gumminess and mess.
this year I bought P/D 148 with Match Lube and was going to load the same 2.8.
would you suggest loading down to 2.5 or even 2.6 of B/E? I dont have the equip or even the time to re lube my lead.
to the OP....
before I switched to 148HBLSWC, I would shoot DEWC 148. My regular load for that was 3.0 to 3.1 of 231. it was light and accurate.
I load one bullet for both a 4" gun for LEO matches that allow WC and in my 6" PPC gun.
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Steve in Vermont
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I just returned from the range and as of today have fired off several hundred reloads of .38 using both Bullseye and HP-38 (same as 231). I use 148 gr DEWC and SWC. As the last post said, I also find 3.1 of HP-38 works fine. Also 2.8 of Bullseye. The only difference, the Bullseye is dirtier than the HP but it cleans up well and isn't a problem.
Here's my 2 cents on the Zero 148gr. HBWC:
If you are determined to use W-231, a loading of 3.1-3.2gr. is optimal. Another excellent powder for this bullet is VV-N310. I currently load 3.0gr. of Titegroup for this bullet, as this powder has a slight edge in accuracy at 50 yds. slowfire over the VV-N310. These loads have been developed for a model 14 bullseye revolver.
All of this said, there is more than powder choices involved in developing a tack-driving load for the Zero 148gr. HBWC. I have a custom seating die just for this bullet, that only contacts the edge of the bullet's nose. I load this bullet a bit longer than most........COL is 1.160 with brass length of 1.145. I use a Redding taper crimp die to finish off the round. I get zilch leading with this formula. I believe that many leading issues with swaged bullets are caused by using a roll crimp(no matter how mild) that scrapes off a bit of lead as the bullet exits the case. You don't need no stinkin' roll crimp on a swaged bullet that has no cannelure, that is being fueled by a fast burning powder, and is loaded to pressures where "jumping crimp" is not an issue.
If you are determined to use W-231, a loading of 3.1-3.2gr. is optimal. Another excellent powder for this bullet is VV-N310. I currently load 3.0gr. of Titegroup for this bullet, as this powder has a slight edge in accuracy at 50 yds. slowfire over the VV-N310. These loads have been developed for a model 14 bullseye revolver.
All of this said, there is more than powder choices involved in developing a tack-driving load for the Zero 148gr. HBWC. I have a custom seating die just for this bullet, that only contacts the edge of the bullet's nose. I load this bullet a bit longer than most........COL is 1.160 with brass length of 1.145. I use a Redding taper crimp die to finish off the round. I get zilch leading with this formula. I believe that many leading issues with swaged bullets are caused by using a roll crimp(no matter how mild) that scrapes off a bit of lead as the bullet exits the case. You don't need no stinkin' roll crimp on a swaged bullet that has no cannelure, that is being fueled by a fast burning powder, and is loaded to pressures where "jumping crimp" is not an issue.
Here's what most of the guys at my club do for PPC loads.
Either PD HBWC or Zero DEWC over 2.3gr B.E. or 2.4gr Titegroup.
I used to use the Titegroup load until I tried the Bullseye load. The BE groups were quite a bit better. I also found 2.8gr and 3.4gr of Unique to be nearly as good as the 2.3gr BE, with 3.0 and 3.2 Unique just a bit behind the 2.8gr load.
How’s that for confusing.
The veteran PPC shooters at my club (consistently in the 596-599 scores) use the 2.3gr BE load as well. Me, I’ve been shooting PPC for 4.5 months, I am just getting into the 588-590 range for "Combat" and 565-574 range for "Service"
Shot today as a matter of fact in Fenton, Mich. 565 service and 585 24X Combat. My best score to date (during practice of course) is 590 32X, followed by 3 588's in a row.
Either PD HBWC or Zero DEWC over 2.3gr B.E. or 2.4gr Titegroup.
I used to use the Titegroup load until I tried the Bullseye load. The BE groups were quite a bit better. I also found 2.8gr and 3.4gr of Unique to be nearly as good as the 2.3gr BE, with 3.0 and 3.2 Unique just a bit behind the 2.8gr load.
How’s that for confusing.
The veteran PPC shooters at my club (consistently in the 596-599 scores) use the 2.3gr BE load as well. Me, I’ve been shooting PPC for 4.5 months, I am just getting into the 588-590 range for "Combat" and 565-574 range for "Service"
Shot today as a matter of fact in Fenton, Mich. 565 service and 585 24X Combat. My best score to date (during practice of course) is 590 32X, followed by 3 588's in a row.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Sometimes if you load too light you will cause leading because there isn't enough pressure to cause the bullet to seal in the barrel. When the gasses blow by the sides you get leading. I have a feeling that's your problem especially since you see the leading within 10 rounds. Up the charge weight a little and see if it clears up, I think it will.
Original message poster.
Hi,
I am the person that posted the original message and first of all I would like to thank everyone for helping me out on this. This is my first season of reloading and it has been a real learning curve.
My first conclusion, other then realizing how much I have to learn, is that my current load of 2.3 of W231 with Federal small pistol primers seems way to light to give me accuracy even at 50 feet.
Should back-up a step and let everyone know that I'm using a Dillon 550 new system with all Dillon dies. I have added an automatic shell feeder to speed up the process but other then that it is stock. My finished bullet length is 1.1500.
Seems that the concensis is that a load of 3.1 grains of W231 might be a good place for me to switch to. It also appears that my 2.3 grain load must be causing me some inconsistancy even at 50 feet indoors?
Thanks for all of the help.
lbm Michigan
Hi,
I am the person that posted the original message and first of all I would like to thank everyone for helping me out on this. This is my first season of reloading and it has been a real learning curve.
My first conclusion, other then realizing how much I have to learn, is that my current load of 2.3 of W231 with Federal small pistol primers seems way to light to give me accuracy even at 50 feet.
Should back-up a step and let everyone know that I'm using a Dillon 550 new system with all Dillon dies. I have added an automatic shell feeder to speed up the process but other then that it is stock. My finished bullet length is 1.1500.
Seems that the concensis is that a load of 3.1 grains of W231 might be a good place for me to switch to. It also appears that my 2.3 grain load must be causing me some inconsistancy even at 50 feet indoors?
Thanks for all of the help.
lbm Michigan
Well, went to the banquet last night, won a 4" Springfield Service XD 357 Mag! I missed out on a gun in the combat match, was 3 points too high again...got booted to the bottom of the next higher class. Same for my service class, only it was two points instead of three. But, at this particular match, they had an aggregate match score as well. This is the combined scores from both classes. I ended up high shot in the Master class and won the gun.
Now I just gotta decide if I can use a 357 Sig. I can't think of any real use. At $25-$30 a box, it's way too expensive to plink with or practice, even with reloading. I have never picked up 357 Sig brass...anywhere! I could always buy a 40 cal barrel for it, but then I'd have three of them, can't justify that either. Maybe I'll sell it and get a 45.
I almost traded it for a 5" XD9 while in line waiting to fill out the paperwork. But when the guy realized he won a 5" gun, he didn't want to.
SW CQB 45
Member
tdan, I would like your details in loading VV-N310 using 148 HBWC?
to include powder charge and OAL.
I will be using PD 148s with match lube and want to try something different other than B/E and 231. I dont have any TightGroup but I do have AA#2.
this will be a dual use ammo for PPC out to 50 yds and LEO matches out to 25 yds to be used in a H/B PPC 6" M14, 6" 14-5 and a 4" 686. I want to find one slug and powder combo and stick with it for the entire year.
I loaded .358" remmy's last yr with 2.8 of B/E and while they were accurate....the loading process was very slow and quite messy.
I hope I get the same accuracy or better with .357" PDs.
I too was roll crimping for smoother reloads, but I will try your method of sticking the bullet out just a tad further with a mild taper crimp to improve speedloader feeding.
when my PDs are gone in a few months, I plan to buy Zero since they seem to have a good following with minimal posted issues.
thanks in advance
I use the same powder, 138 grain BNWC Bayou bullets, with 2.4 grains, Starline brass and Federal small primers. I use a Dillon 650 with Dillon dies but I'm in the process of switching the crimping die to a Lee. May switch all dies to Lee to get the carbide sizing die but I'm not thrilled with how the Lee de-primer works.
My PPC Combat gun has a bull barrel on a model 10 frame made by Mojo.
You can see my post regarding a Tight cylinder on my new Service class P 66-8.
Shoots very well from a Ransom Rest indoors.
lbm
My PPC Combat gun has a bull barrel on a model 10 frame made by Mojo.
You can see my post regarding a Tight cylinder on my new Service class P 66-8.
Shoots very well from a Ransom Rest indoors.
lbm
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I did a lot of test with a J frame 2" with the 148 HB and w231.
I then tried a 148 BBwc with a full load of w231 at 3.9grs for
a SD load, over my chrony.
If you try this load......
make sure you have a very firm grip on your weapon.
I then tried a 148 BBwc with a full load of w231 at 3.9grs for
a SD load, over my chrony.
If you try this load......
make sure you have a very firm grip on your weapon.
misswired
Absent Comrade
gwpercle
Member
You need to try a range of powder charges to find that just right load your gun dotes on...it's the only way to dial it in.
Read some of the other posts and see what they have found that works. Usually the very minimum is not the most accurate , I usually start in the middle , like at 3.3 grains and then try some lighter loads and some heavier loads and let the guns accuracy be the deciding factor.
Gary
