M-1 carbine for defence?

[oldRoger]

I had an opportunity while in the Army in the 50's to fire an M2 carbine frequently. I doubt if anyone hit much of anything on full auto. The cyclic rate of fire was very high, even with practice you could not squeeze off a short burst, it became a long burst. Training was to start at the ground to the immediate right of target because it would climb up and left for a right-handed shooter. I seem to remember that you could have all of the brass from a 30 rd mag in the air at once.
You would not want to use an M2 on auto for home defense.
A good friend who was in some very nasty places in Korea said that he issued them to guards, because when fired they would have the whole company awake instantly. Lots of very unpleasant night attacks.

 

[Ron H.]

Regarding failures to stop with the carbine, I doubt underpenetration was the problem, at least with square hits at at close range. The .30 carbine's 110-grain roundnose bullet (which is rather pointy) delivered impressive penetration in Army tests when the gun was adopted. I'm sure those results can be found online somewhere.

Rather, I suspect those little pointy roundnose FMJs simply didn't do much damage on their way through the bad guys. See Elmer Keith's comments on pointed bullets in "Sixguns." He wrote that they tended to deflect on bones unless they were struck squarely, and even when they did hit squarely, they slipped through the target without creating much of a wound channel.

This makes more sense to me than the "heavy clothing" and "lousy marksmanship" theories. Surely not every guy who had a failure to stop with the carbine was shooting poorly.

Since good expanding bullets are available for the carbine, I'd save the FMJs for practice and use softpoints or hollowpoints for social work.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[armenius]

The carbine was the weapon of choice of no other than Audie Murphy....endorsement enough.

 

[perpster]

Originally posted by Ron H.:
Regarding failures to stop with the carbine, I doubt underpenetration was the problem, at least with square hits at at close range. The .30 carbine's 110-grain roundnose bullet (which is rather pointy) delivered impressive penetration in Army tests when the gun was adopted. I'm sure those results can be found online somewhere.

Rather, I suspect those little pointy roundnose FMJs simply didn't do much damage on their way through the bad guys. See Elmer Keith's comments on pointed bullets in "Sixguns." He wrote that they tended to deflect on bones unless they were struck squarely, and even when they did hit squarely, they slipped through the target without creating much of a wound channel.

This makes more sense to me than the "heavy clothing" and "lousy marksmanship" theories. Surely not every guy who had a failure to stop with the carbine was shooting poorly.

Since good expanding bullets are available for the carbine, I'd save the FMJs for practice and use softpoints or hollowpoints for social work.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

Ron H., You are slipping, sir. You forgot to start your post with "Sir . . ." DROP AND GIVE ME 20!

 

[Ron H.]

Originally posted by perpster:

Originally posted by Ron H.:
Regarding failures to stop with the carbine, I doubt underpenetration was the problem, at least with square hits at at close range. The .30 carbine's 110-grain roundnose bullet (which is rather pointy) delivered impressive penetration in Army tests when the gun was adopted. I'm sure those results can be found online somewhere.

Rather, I suspect those little pointy roundnose FMJs simply didn't do much damage on their way through the bad guys. See Elmer Keith's comments on pointed bullets in "Sixguns." He wrote that they tended to deflect on bones unless they were struck squarely, and even when they did hit squarely, they slipped through the target without creating much of a wound channel.

This makes more sense to me than the "heavy clothing" and "lousy marksmanship" theories. Surely not every guy who had a failure to stop with the carbine was shooting poorly.

Since good expanding bullets are available for the carbine, I'd save the FMJs for practice and use softpoints or hollowpoints for social work.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

Ron H., You are slipping, sir. You forgot to start your post with "Sir . . ." DROP AND GIVE ME 20!

Sir, done. (huff, puff)

Semper Fi,

Ron H.

 

[perpster]

Originally posted by Ron H.:

Originally posted by perpster:

Originally posted by Ron H.:
Regarding failures to stop with the carbine, I doubt underpenetration was the problem, at least with square hits at at close range. The .30 carbine's 110-grain roundnose bullet (which is rather pointy) delivered impressive penetration in Army tests when the gun was adopted. I'm sure those results can be found online somewhere.

Rather, I suspect those little pointy roundnose FMJs simply didn't do much damage on their way through the bad guys. See Elmer Keith's comments on pointed bullets in "Sixguns." He wrote that they tended to deflect on bones unless they were struck squarely, and even when they did hit squarely, they slipped through the target without creating much of a wound channel.

This makes more sense to me than the "heavy clothing" and "lousy marksmanship" theories. Surely not every guy who had a failure to stop with the carbine was shooting poorly.

Since good expanding bullets are available for the carbine, I'd save the FMJs for practice and use softpoints or hollowpoints for social work.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

Ron H., You are slipping, sir. You forgot to start your post with "Sir . . ." DROP AND GIVE ME 20!

Sir, done. (huff, puff)

Semper Fi,

Ron H.

ROFLOL

 

[gbrady]

bought one from the DCM in the 60's, hunted everything legal in Okla and never had anything run off from the HP's, should work fine as a SHTF gun

 

[flop-shank]

Originally posted by Ron H.:
Regarding failures to stop with the carbine, I doubt underpenetration was the problem, at least with square hits at at close range. The .30 carbine's 110-grain roundnose bullet (which is rather pointy) delivered impressive penetration in Army tests when the gun was adopted. I'm sure those results can be found online somewhere.

Rather, I suspect those little pointy roundnose FMJs simply didn't do much damage on their way through the bad guys. See Elmer Keith's comments on pointed bullets in "Sixguns." He wrote that they tended to deflect on bones unless they were struck squarely, and even when they did hit squarely, they slipped through the target without creating much of a wound channel.

This makes more sense to me than the "heavy clothing" and "lousy marksmanship" theories. Surely not every guy who had a failure to stop with the carbine was shooting poorly.

Since good expanding bullets are available for the carbine, I'd save the FMJs for practice and use softpoints or hollowpoints for social work.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

I think Ron really summed up the M1 carbine nicely. My first squad leader was a LRRP in Vietnam. He hated the M1 carbine. All the carbine wounds and shootings he witnessed were with FMJ ammo (also of interest is that I never heard him say anything negative about the M-16).

Jim Cirillo had very positive things to say about the M1 carbine, provided it was loaded with hollowpoints. An M-1 crbine with hollowpoints is a proven fight stopper.

In testing I have done, heavy clothing doesn't slow down bullets much and it won't stop an M-1 carbine.

If you use the carbine for defense use hollowpoints and you are well armed. Use FMJ and you are using a very second rate system.

 

[Andy Griffith]

If heavy clothing can't stop a .22 Short or even a .25ACP, why would it stop a .30 Carbine?

 

[Faulkner]

I carry a M1 carbine in M1A1 configuration for a patrol carbine as a deputy sheriff. My department bought 60 surplus M1 carbines for $150 each in 2000. These appeared to have been re-imported in from Israel. Overall, they were well used but very servicable. Having some previous experiance with M1 carbines as a collector, I was assigned the task of servicing them so we could issue them for duty. This was a very enjoyable and exciting 3 month assignment.

I stripped the carbines down and completely cleaned them and replaced all the springs with new ones. The stocks that were salvageable we stripped and refinished with boiled lindseed oil, but some we restocked with new ones. We even tried out a few synthetic stocks with rails that actually worked pretty well. We also bought what seems like a ton of FMJ ammo for practice, but for duty use we carry round-nosed-soft-hollow-points.

I spent a great deal of time on the range testing every rifle. We share our range with several local police departments, many of which issue or authorize the use of black rifles. I got a lot of time shooting side by side with AR's in friendly competitions for accuracy and tactical training. Flat out the M1 carbine held it's own at anything under 150 yards. Reliablity was 100%, so for those who complain about their carbines not being reliable, you need to consider changing out those 60+ year old USGI springs.

Back to the ammo . . . I won't argue about whether the Chinese quilted jackets stopping the .30 carbine round is a myth or not, but I will tell you it WILL penetrate Level II and IIA ballistic vests. It will also defeat auto glass and auto body. The 110 grain round-nosed-soft-hollow-point is a very effective round. (Though I don't recommend the .30 carbine as a deer cartridge, I have taken 4 legal bucks with this round and they were all one stop shots at 40-60 yards.)

I have carried a M1 carbine as a patrol carbine since 2000. I have retired my rebuilt USGI carbine and started carrying a new one. A few years ago I built several M1 carbines from scratch using new Springfield, Inc., receivers, new barrels, and new/old stock USGI carbine parts. The result is basically a brand new gun.

Through experiance, stay away from 30 round magazines. Commercial magazines are a hit or miss afair. 30 round USGI magazines, though much more reliable, run $75.00+ on the collector market and aren't worth the cost. I have been using 20 round commercial magazines with very good success and that's what I use now. Of course, USGI 15 round magazines operate pretty much flawlessly.

The original question was would the M1 carbine make a good home defense weapon. My answer would be absolutely yes. Just remember, though I think the M1 carbine is pretty much over-engineered for the .30 carbine round it shoots, USGI carbines are all over 60 years old. If you are going to let your life depend on it, make sure it's in 100% operating condition.

 

[patrick james]

Faulkner,Very informative post.Thank you

 

[David Sinko]

I have no experience with the rifle or cartridge but I have been using the Hornday 90 gr. XTP in other .308 rifles including .30-30, .300 Savage and .308 Winchester. I think this bullet should be perfect in the .30 Carbine, if the rifle will feed it.

Dave Sinko

 

[Double-O-Dave]

I recall reading that the problems incurred with the failures to kill in Korea against the enemy wearing quilted coats was that our troops were not properly trained or equipped to fight in this element, and many of them uh, improvised solutions to meet their tactical needs. One of these solutions included stretching springs to increase the cyclic rate of the m1 carbine probably in hopes of making a semiautomatic function somewhat more like a fully automatic weapon, or perhaps to encourage better function from a weapon that was functioning sluggishly due to the wrong type of lubricant for that type of weather.

I have giving thought lately to building an AR-15 rifle from scratch as a project, but I'm a real tight-wad as well as a pragmatic, and I already own a nice inland M1 carbine for recreation and HD. I am thinking more and more of devoting the AR-15 build funds towards a Choate folding stock, a nice red dot scope, and a stock pile of ammo and reloading supplies first. Any advice from the forum would be welcomed and greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Regards,

Dave

 

[reload4me2]

1+ on Faulkner's post - thanks

Also check out: http://www.m1carbinesinc.com

I was considering getting one a while ago but opted not to after to talking to some folks and a friend who ones at least one. A few of the issues he mentioned were the magazines - feeding issues - he has several mags but basically has one or two he reuses/trusts. Buying ammo locally can be an issue at times. That said he enjoys shooting it and describes it as a fun piece.

Not being an armorer the age of the rifles/parts was a concern, I did not want my home self defense rifle to suffer a metal fatigue/breakage issue when I need it the most. Kahr arms, under one of their affiliates, currently is the only company manufacturing new M1 Carbines, but from what I have read their parts are not interchangeable with older ones (not sure about the mags though).

Then there is the political concern over "assault" bans.

I think the ballistics of the M1 carbine for a home rifle are OK by me.

Another thing to I considered is how many calibers was I willing to keep around the house and in a pinch what will I be able to grab and go.

______________________________________________________________

 

[GatorFarmer]

Originally posted by Faulkner:

Back to the ammo . . . I won't argue about whether the Chinese quilted jackets stopping the .30 carbine round is a myth or not, but I will tell you it WILL penetrate Level II and IIA ballistic vests. Through experiance, stay away from 30 round magazines. Commercial magazines are a hit or miss afair. 30 round USGI magazines, though much more reliable, run $75.00+ on the collector market and aren't worth the cost. I have been using 20 round commercial magazines with very good success and that's what I use now. Of course, USGI 15 round magazines operate pretty much flawlessly.

When you tested it against armor, did you have the vests laying/hanging flat, or did you have them wrapped around a dead animal, block of clay or similar? Was it just straight on that penetratred, or angled shots as well?

You might want to test them against IIIA vests, or ones uparmored to the equivalent there of (extra panels inserted into German flak vests). Penetration is probably going to be iffy against these. This is roughly the standard protection level of the military vests that are all over Ebay and would be commonly encountered in the OP's "SHTF" clause.

What brand of commercial 20s did you find that worked?

 

[Grayfox]

I also believe that the M1 Carbine is more than adequate for self defense.
I have two. One is a box stock as issued Inland. The other is a Standard Products that has been modified for zombie duty.

BTW: my G.I. 30 round mags function perfectly.

 

[reddogge]

With soft points it is a most reliable man stopper, lightweight, and accurate. If ammo price was a consideration I'd have to give the nod to an SKS but for coolness the M1 Carbine has it.

 

[2152hq]

I don't see anything wrong with it. That 110gr bullet in the right configuration and velocity will certainly do the job. Light, handy and built to withstand combat,,whats not to like. Parts are still all over the place should you need any. Aftermarket accessorys too.

I took the mag followers out of a couple of 30rd mags and put them into 15rd mags so they hold the bolt open on the last shot. Still take 15rds, but maybe some of the followers might not allow it,,don't know for sure.

The 30rd mags look neat but the GI Issue 15rd mags always worked perfectly for me. Some of the 30rd mags work great,,others not so good.
If you do any follower switching, make sure they still do function 100% before you stake your life on them though.

I bought a Winchester with lots of GI ammo, mags, sling, canvas case,,etc back a ways for $400. Never tempted to sell that one but a couple of others have come and gone.

 

[Faulkner]

Originally posted by Grayfox:
I also believe that the M1 Carbine is more than adequate for self defense.
I have two. One is a box stock as issued Inland. The other is a Standard Products that has been modified for zombie duty.

BTW: my G.I. 30 round mags function perfectly.

M1 carbine in tacticool garb. I like it.

 

[Spotteddog]

Sometimes the followers are the only part of use in a cannibalization. Decent springs and feed lips that haven't been horked up. You can "make" last round hold open followers yourself out of the G.I. ones. Making that then a feature available for use in any round count magazine.