OP
skunkwerkz
Member
thanks and good luck today ,remember 12hrs is only a half day!
m&p 15-22 magazine loader
- Thread starter skunkwerkz
- Start date
QuiQNeZZ
Member
Yeah, I was also thinking about that too. Some plastic tube with a cap to protect the tube.
Another question, why can't the feeder "lip" if you will, at the end of the tube that goes into the magazine cap be molded into the magazine cap so as to avoid the need to constantly adjust the metal? Assuming that all the magazine feeder lips are the same for each brand of magazine, which I believe they are. I think making it a permanent part of the mag clip piece would work out better right? Then have the end of the metal tube just cut straight and have it sit and align inside the mag clip with the feeder lip. Know what I mean?
The mold I guess would have to be slightly modified but should be an easy job for someone with some CAD skills.
I'm also thinking a small hard plastic cap for the upper part of the tube molded in the shape of that slant at the top which can be clipped or threaded on and removed from the tube would also help with the constant bending of the metal which it seems will at some point give way and break off.
Just some thoughts. =)
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Maddmax
US Veteran
Same here. Staggering rounds hasn't been an issue. I did have to "tweak" the drop end to match the mags feed lips a little better but it is working fine. NOT a speed machine but does work very well.
I'm going to the hobby store to see if I can find some brass tubing and replace the original piece with something a bit stiffer.
Otherwise it works great.
TacticalTwentyTwo
Member
- Joined
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I havent read all the pages but I assume the block will hold enough for the 35 round magazines? Is there markings on the main block that show how many bullets are currently placed in it so you don't have to worry about counting? Maybe none of this matters. Can't wait for a final product so I can pick one up.
Majorlk
Member
No, the tray holds 27 rounds. The tube isn't long enough to hold more than 13. To hold a magazine full would make the drop tube over two feet long and that would be unwieldy.
Reading the whole thread and watching the initial video will answer any questions you have.
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Jeffro57
Member
Thank you Skunk! I just got my Beta Tester today, along with the cool looking shirt! Very nice!
First thing out of the package was a very bowed, and crushed down at both ends, aluminum tube. I think my UPS guy was angry or something! Anyway, with some gentle bending and re-shaping, i got the bullets to drop from the box, and in and down completely through the tube. From there, I put the tube back in the magazine loader and got things aligned and loaded a 10 and 25-round S&W mag with very little problems. I was using some pretty waxy Winchester HP's. Occassionally I'd have to stop and tap the bottom of the mag to get the bullets to continue feeding down the tube, but a very smooth operation. I think after I got the tube bent correctly, the problem went away. I did them a few times then looked around...
Next up was my Black Dog 50-rounder. I think it worked every bit as well for the drum, as it does for the S&W's!!! You do have to keep loading more shells in the tube to keep the operation going, but this is SO much faster for a 50-rounder, that it's rediculous! This could really have the old ammo bill through the roof, if you're not careful
I'm truly impressed with this new toy I've received, and with a few minor tweaks in packaging and/or tube material, like the other testers have already mentioned, I think this is a winner all the way!
Congratulations to you sir, for a great product! I hope you become wealthy beyond your dreams, and have great happiness in your life. j
First thing out of the package was a very bowed, and crushed down at both ends, aluminum tube. I think my UPS guy was angry or something! Anyway, with some gentle bending and re-shaping, i got the bullets to drop from the box, and in and down completely through the tube. From there, I put the tube back in the magazine loader and got things aligned and loaded a 10 and 25-round S&W mag with very little problems. I was using some pretty waxy Winchester HP's. Occassionally I'd have to stop and tap the bottom of the mag to get the bullets to continue feeding down the tube, but a very smooth operation. I think after I got the tube bent correctly, the problem went away. I did them a few times then looked around...
Next up was my Black Dog 50-rounder. I think it worked every bit as well for the drum, as it does for the S&W's!!! You do have to keep loading more shells in the tube to keep the operation going, but this is SO much faster for a 50-rounder, that it's rediculous! This could really have the old ammo bill through the roof, if you're not careful
I'm truly impressed with this new toy I've received, and with a few minor tweaks in packaging and/or tube material, like the other testers have already mentioned, I think this is a winner all the way!
Congratulations to you sir, for a great product! I hope you become wealthy beyond your dreams, and have great happiness in your life. j
OP
skunkwerkz
Member
well looks like good reviews so far.
thats very relieving!
i will try to post the pics and small vid of the tube and box mods tonight sometime,
ps i warned everyone about the ammo bill in the past post!
thats very relieving!
i will try to post the pics and small vid of the tube and box mods tonight sometime,
ps i warned everyone about the ammo bill in the past post!
Majorlk
Member
well looks like good reviews so far.
thats very relieving!
i will try to post the pics and small vid of the tube and box mods tonight sometime,
ps i warned everyone about the ammo bill in the past post!
You're not reimbursing for the Ammo??????????
OP
skunkwerkz
Member
if this takes off good I might do something special for all the testers!
but for now i still have a budget to stay within!
OP
skunkwerkz
Member
box and tube mod video link
ok here is the modification video link for the tube and box,
give it a try if your a handy type of guy which i think most of you are, if you mod your unit please post your success and comment on the new design idea.
loader mod video - YouTube
still trying to get pictures uploaded, seems to be more difficult than i figured?
ok here is the modification video link for the tube and box,
give it a try if your a handy type of guy which i think most of you are, if you mod your unit please post your success and comment on the new design idea.
loader mod video - YouTube
still trying to get pictures uploaded, seems to be more difficult than i figured?
Majorlk
Member
Jyezahn
US Veteran
Yep, I'll do the mod this evening and post results.
OP
skunkwerkz
Member
looks like dikinalsaka got his , hope it isnt all bent up like some others, definitely need to ship in stronger packages or tube.
I cant wait to see how the mod wirks out , myself, i like it better and you seem to have a little more freedom with the angle of the loading tube.
I cant wait to see how the mod wirks out , myself, i like it better and you seem to have a little more freedom with the angle of the loading tube.
OP
skunkwerkz
Member
so far yes,, i found out you cannot laser cut brass because its too reflective without painting it first, two manufactures already refused to laser cut them out of brass, so its still in the wirkz.
thanks for your interest!
speedyquad
Member
it is looking like 12 hours until friday so i don't have to work the weekend...i'll take that trade off...(i've already worked 17+ hours of ot this year, 12 hours is nothing...LOL)
my review will happen on saturday. i've already jotted down some comments in a notebook.
my review will happen on saturday. i've already jotted down some comments in a notebook.
Shooterjgs
Member
Hurray just got it... nice teeshirt Thanks... started playing with it right away... should have a preliminary review soon... in the meantime I'll be wearing the teeshirt to the gun range this weekend letting the other shooters know what its about...
rraisley
Member
Like others, I was really happy to receive the loader (and the T-Shirt - thanks!), and began to play with it. Wanting to refresh myself with the operation, I went to page 1 of this thread (had to search to find it first - hadn't been here for a little while), and started using it. Well, it didn't work. Wouldn't feed anything. And I didn't quite understand how the bullets were supposed to tip into the feed tube (expecting them to slide right in, rather than getting flipped by the angle at the end of the feed tube), so mostly what I did, after removing ammo from a couple mags, was to spill .22's all over the floor.
So, I figured I was doing something wrong, and started reading posts, finally finding the one where the Beta Test adjustment procedures video was posted. Obviously, that were a big help. My problems and reactions are:
1) Initially, I wasn't pressing the tube holder down on the mag far enough, which wasn't giving enough clearance to feed any rounds. After realizing this problem, it made a big difference.
2) I realized how the "tipping" action worked, and for the most part, the rounds flip as expected. Sometimes, depending on how I'm holding it, or maybe just inexperience, one will flip off or wrong, but I'm getting better at it.
3) The tube slips rather easily in the holder, and was bent up some. I had to adjust pretty much every part: the tipping angle at the end, the rotation of the slot over the mag, the distance from the tube to the tip of the mag, and straightening the tube to properly feed to the mag. The video helps a LOT in this regard.
4) After adjustment, feeding went quite well. Sometimes I'll feed it a bit too fast, and a bullet will end up vertical, which is kind of a pain to re-do. But practice will cure this, I believe.
5) It certainly loads quickly enough once the rounds are into the bin. What takes the most time is placing them there, and, since I'm not yet at the range, unloading the mag to try again.
6) I'd say every other mag or so had at least one round which wasn't staggered, but I honestly don't expect that to be a problem. When loading manually, for a while, I noticed when I had a stagger problem, and never seemed to have a feeding problem because of it. So I'm not really worried about the stagger. I think, once I'm used to holding the loader correctly, it will load at least as accurately in this respect as I do by hand.
7) The Bic pen idea was good (of the dozens of pens in my house, would you believe I only found ONE "standard" size Bic?), but without something to force it round, it's really more of a guide. Still, if it gets bent up, it can help get it straight once again.
8) I agree a harder material would be better for the tube. NOT plastic, though, as it will end up almost impossible to adjust (I feel it will still need adjustment, but plastic would either break or just spring back). And to be honest, a tempered (T-6) aluminum might be hard to adjust as well. It's a Catch-22; the harder material will deform less easily, but might be a real bear to adjust by hand.
9) I made a mark (just black Sharpie on black plastic) at the 25-round mark, so as not to overload the bin. It seems to work well. If you make them larger, to accommodate 32-round mags, you might put 10-, 25- and 32-round indentations in the bin for reference. Not really required, and I realize that would require a longer feed tube, or simply load more times (easier to do).
10) While printed instructions would probably be either hard to do, or not much good, a single sheet of paper with a link to the video and your web site would be a good thing to include with the loader.
11) Quality of all the plastic castings are excellent, and the fit over the mag is excellent as well. Very good job there. The aluminum tube doesn't quite seem to fit the rest of the product, quality-wise, though.
12) It took me a while to realize how easy it is, when having a feeding problem, to simply tip the tube back and return the cartridges to the bin, rather than just lift it and having them spill all over the ground. ;-) That's me, though.
13) Since I can now operate it pretty well and consistently, please realize that the "points" I've made above are more for informational purposes, not really complaints. I figure if you know what problems people have, however small or perceived, the better position you will be in to either solve them, or explain how to avoid them.
I'm very pleased so far, now that it's adjusted properly and I'm more familiar with its operation. The real test will be at the range, of course, and I'm looking forward to that as well. I'll have to be careful handling it, but field adjustments should be easy, and hopefully will not fatigue the metal to the point of breaking.
So, I figured I was doing something wrong, and started reading posts, finally finding the one where the Beta Test adjustment procedures video was posted. Obviously, that were a big help. My problems and reactions are:
1) Initially, I wasn't pressing the tube holder down on the mag far enough, which wasn't giving enough clearance to feed any rounds. After realizing this problem, it made a big difference.
2) I realized how the "tipping" action worked, and for the most part, the rounds flip as expected. Sometimes, depending on how I'm holding it, or maybe just inexperience, one will flip off or wrong, but I'm getting better at it.
3) The tube slips rather easily in the holder, and was bent up some. I had to adjust pretty much every part: the tipping angle at the end, the rotation of the slot over the mag, the distance from the tube to the tip of the mag, and straightening the tube to properly feed to the mag. The video helps a LOT in this regard.
4) After adjustment, feeding went quite well. Sometimes I'll feed it a bit too fast, and a bullet will end up vertical, which is kind of a pain to re-do. But practice will cure this, I believe.
5) It certainly loads quickly enough once the rounds are into the bin. What takes the most time is placing them there, and, since I'm not yet at the range, unloading the mag to try again.
6) I'd say every other mag or so had at least one round which wasn't staggered, but I honestly don't expect that to be a problem. When loading manually, for a while, I noticed when I had a stagger problem, and never seemed to have a feeding problem because of it. So I'm not really worried about the stagger. I think, once I'm used to holding the loader correctly, it will load at least as accurately in this respect as I do by hand.
7) The Bic pen idea was good (of the dozens of pens in my house, would you believe I only found ONE "standard" size Bic?), but without something to force it round, it's really more of a guide. Still, if it gets bent up, it can help get it straight once again.
8) I agree a harder material would be better for the tube. NOT plastic, though, as it will end up almost impossible to adjust (I feel it will still need adjustment, but plastic would either break or just spring back). And to be honest, a tempered (T-6) aluminum might be hard to adjust as well. It's a Catch-22; the harder material will deform less easily, but might be a real bear to adjust by hand.
9) I made a mark (just black Sharpie on black plastic) at the 25-round mark, so as not to overload the bin. It seems to work well. If you make them larger, to accommodate 32-round mags, you might put 10-, 25- and 32-round indentations in the bin for reference. Not really required, and I realize that would require a longer feed tube, or simply load more times (easier to do).
10) While printed instructions would probably be either hard to do, or not much good, a single sheet of paper with a link to the video and your web site would be a good thing to include with the loader.
11) Quality of all the plastic castings are excellent, and the fit over the mag is excellent as well. Very good job there. The aluminum tube doesn't quite seem to fit the rest of the product, quality-wise, though.
12) It took me a while to realize how easy it is, when having a feeding problem, to simply tip the tube back and return the cartridges to the bin, rather than just lift it and having them spill all over the ground. ;-) That's me, though.
13) Since I can now operate it pretty well and consistently, please realize that the "points" I've made above are more for informational purposes, not really complaints. I figure if you know what problems people have, however small or perceived, the better position you will be in to either solve them, or explain how to avoid them.
I'm very pleased so far, now that it's adjusted properly and I'm more familiar with its operation. The real test will be at the range, of course, and I'm looking forward to that as well. I'll have to be careful handling it, but field adjustments should be easy, and hopefully will not fatigue the metal to the point of breaking.
rraisley
Member
Aluminum can be far stiffer than brass; it's just that the soft aluminum used is, well, very soft. As I mentioned above, having the tube TOO strong may be a problem too, as it will be harder to adjust. But there are many types of aluminum tubing, with various heat treatments (T3, T6, etc.), so I would think that you might be best off going to a hardened aluminum, rather than brass (which is much heavier and not that hard itself unless hardened).
Dikinalaska
Member
Sorry I didn't post sooner Skunk, I'm out of town for training til tomorrow night. Had a friend go get the package so it's in safe keeping. I'll let you know as soon as I get home how everything came out. Crossing my fingers!!
Maddmax
US Veteran
ok finaly
here is the link to the beta tester user video
beta tester instructions - YouTube
ps dont laugh at my demonstration skills!
Also I found when adjusting the "Tip Nozzle",it also helps if you trim just a "titch" off the corners of the front rear plastic feed lip (corners on the mags) that it sits against. With the load assist button I "bump" them in the slot. Let the bullet side all the way in,let the spring/button come up and then pull down just enough to slide another bullet on top and keep repeting until full. I have NOT yet had any rounds not stagger.
The slight mod to the mag lips helped tons and haven't had a feed problem since. About all you do is take that sharp edge off both sides.
Maddmax
US Veteran
Got a wield hair and I'm playing with a little different approach out of the feed tray. If I get something good I'll send some direct photos. ...Still trying to keep it simple.
Majorlk
Member
Got a wield hair and I'm playing with a little different approach out of the feed tray. If I get something good I'll send some direct photos. ...Still trying to keep it simple.
Is that a cross between weird and wild?
OP
skunkwerkz
Member
I hope fed ex used two parachutes like I asked! but they said the bush pilots names was "crazy fred"!, so no guarantee
OP
skunkwerkz
Member
you shouldn't need two mod the magazine at all to get it to work perfectly,,I really discourage any modification to the factory magazines
OP
skunkwerkz
Member
,
nice review, very technical, very good insight on the plastic tip issue, as that has been explored and came to the same conclusion, also great insight on your engineering aspects and technical metal properties, I may need to rely on you a bit for some metallurgy questions in the near future, still trying to find just the right tube material other than brass if need be. I always like to have a few options available before deciding.
rraisley
Member
Surprisingly (to me), most of the aluminum tubing I've found close to the size you used is 6061-T6, a pretty strong and stiff material. So perhaps it's just the thin gauge that makes it a bit flimsy.
I notice that 5/16" OD 304 Stainless is available, in several wall thicknesses (0.020, 0.028, 0.035, 0.049). Your tubing appears to measure 0.344" OD, though, (not sure what size that is - not a standard inch or metric size, to me) and about 0.022" thick wall, giving 0.30" ID (cartridges are about 0.275"). 5/16" OD x .020" wall stainless would be 0.272 ID (too small). I do see 3/8" OD stainless tubing, and with 0.035" wall, that would give an ID of 0.305", which is fine. But that would be quite stiff stainless, possibly too stiff to easily bend the feed area at the top. It would be over double the strength and 6 times the stiffness of the aluminum, though.
You can get 0.375" OD x 0.035" wall (0.305 ID) aluminum tubing in 2024-T3 aluminum, which is a high-strength alloy used in aerospace applications. I think it would be too expensive for this use, though. The same size in 6061-T6 would be much less expensive, and due to the wall thickness, it would still be much stiffer than the current tube. Probably a better choice, lighter than brass, stronger and about the same cost, from what I can tell.
If you can find stainless about the same size as your current aluminum, it might work well, but I can't seem to find tubing that size.
Just some thoughts.
OP
skunkwerkz
Member
my exact thoughts.
im using 11/32 od,, the 5/6 od tube is to small id and 3/8 od tube dosent work because of the radius is to larger.
the 3/8 id is to large for the nozzle end to funnel the rounds directly into the magazine area allowing the round to wiggle side to side and get caught on the mag lips,, which is why i had to use 11/32 tube,,
i think a bit thicker wall thickness might take care of all the problems ,, my original prototypes i used brass and was adjustable but it was a little to stiff to adjust but held adjustments very well,
, i will get several samples of various aluminum alloys and wall thickness and try to find a happy medium..
im using 11/32 od,, the 5/6 od tube is to small id and 3/8 od tube dosent work because of the radius is to larger.
the 3/8 id is to large for the nozzle end to funnel the rounds directly into the magazine area allowing the round to wiggle side to side and get caught on the mag lips,, which is why i had to use 11/32 tube,,
i think a bit thicker wall thickness might take care of all the problems ,, my original prototypes i used brass and was adjustable but it was a little to stiff to adjust but held adjustments very well,
, i will get several samples of various aluminum alloys and wall thickness and try to find a happy medium..
OP
skunkwerkz
Member
has anyone tried the box mod yet?
i got to thinking if you umm over modified it ,by cutting too deep ,just private message me and i will see what we can do.
as they say measure twice and cut ounce.
I would like to know what you guys think before it goes back for retooling$$$$.
i got to thinking if you umm over modified it ,by cutting too deep ,just private message me and i will see what we can do.
as they say measure twice and cut ounce.
I would like to know what you guys think before it goes back for retooling$$$$.
rraisley
Member
I hate to screw up something that's now working, so doubt I'll mod it. I do have some questions about the mod, though:
With the current operation, I was thinking you depended on the tab to help tip the rounds over, to go in base first. Is that not the case?
With the current design, there is a definite stop, horizontally, that determines the location of the tube. With the modified design, it seems there would be no horizontal locator, no? Perhaps, instead of a tapered bottom mod (removing that 0.10"), you could have a stepped mod, and the tube would fit into that step, for a definite locator. It still might slide under the step, though, and not locate precisely.
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