M&P 1905 4 Inch Target Model
- Thread starter GRI
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Have you gotten a letter from the S&W Historian to verify the barrel length and other features?
Factory 4-inch target models of that era are pretty scarce.
Factory 4-inch target models of that era are pretty scarce.
bmg60
Member
Hi send me the serial number I have one that letters it was made for a forman in the factory. He order 4 all the same.
serial number is 113471
My best guess is that less that 50 made in 4 inch.
Jim Fisher LM1491
serial number is 113471
My best guess is that less that 50 made in 4 inch.
Jim Fisher LM1491
policerevolvercollector
Member
That is a real find!! Please get a letter and keep us posted!
OP
GRI
Member
True, they would appear to be a replacement and are un-numbered.
I was going to give you a non-response response along the lines of "not hardly"------or try to look a bit smarter, and say "maybe less than one half of one percent of the eight to ten percent of M&P's made as targets at any given time". That said, the sight in use between about 1911 and 1923 (the so-called "Large Screw Spring Up" sight) was somewhat less than satisfactory in real life. That in turn depressed the demand, and that 8-10% was more like 2% for the period---or so I'm told.
Bottom Line: I can't answer your question either, but when Mr. Jim talks----I listen---and am not even remotely inclined to argue with his best guess that less than 50 were made in 4 inch. That brings us to the next bottom line which is: All 4" M&P targets are rare, and any from the time of yours are more rare.
I have a 5" target (#116420) from 1910. It's rare too---just not as rare as yours. But it's really spiffy---because it's been refinished. As much as that pains me, it's still a 5".
Wanna trade? I didn't think so.
Ralph Tremaine
Bottom Line: I can't answer your question either, but when Mr. Jim talks----I listen---and am not even remotely inclined to argue with his best guess that less than 50 were made in 4 inch. That brings us to the next bottom line which is: All 4" M&P targets are rare, and any from the time of yours are more rare.
I have a 5" target (#116420) from 1910. It's rare too---just not as rare as yours. But it's really spiffy---because it's been refinished. As much as that pains me, it's still a 5".
Wanna trade? I didn't think so.
Ralph Tremaine
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I don't clearly understand your question "how many 4 inch target models were made?"
What time period are you referring to ?
If you mean all pre-WW2 .38 special K-frames, you'd have to start with about 800,000
guns. Then use the the assumption that approximately 10% of those were targets,
which is about 80,000 guns. Now, factory targets were available in 4 lengths; 4", 5", 6", and 6 1/2", depending on the specific time period.
It generally believed that the longer barrels were more popular for target guns, so
lets say that 10% were 4", 10% were 5", and the rest were the longer barrels. For
the 4" guns, 10% of the 80,000 targets is 8000 guns.
Finally, we have to make an assumption about the survival rate. A lot of guns have been lost, for a variety of reasons. Lets say the survival rate is 25%, so that means that there ought to be 2000 4" targets - somewhere.
There are reasons for making the assumptions that I did. For one, there was a class
of target shooting called pocket revolvers, and that included 4" barrels, I believe.
I have a pair of 4" targets from 1910 that went to two pocket revolver shooters in St Louis.
The moral of this story is that the assumptions are critical to estimating the number of
surviving 4" .38 target revolvers. Change the numbers, and you'll get very different
results. For example changing the 10% assumption about fraction of 4" lengths to 1%
brings the estimate of survivors down to 200 guns, which is probably not enough.
Regards, Mike Priwer
What time period are you referring to ?
If you mean all pre-WW2 .38 special K-frames, you'd have to start with about 800,000
guns. Then use the the assumption that approximately 10% of those were targets,
which is about 80,000 guns. Now, factory targets were available in 4 lengths; 4", 5", 6", and 6 1/2", depending on the specific time period.
It generally believed that the longer barrels were more popular for target guns, so
lets say that 10% were 4", 10% were 5", and the rest were the longer barrels. For
the 4" guns, 10% of the 80,000 targets is 8000 guns.
Finally, we have to make an assumption about the survival rate. A lot of guns have been lost, for a variety of reasons. Lets say the survival rate is 25%, so that means that there ought to be 2000 4" targets - somewhere.
There are reasons for making the assumptions that I did. For one, there was a class
of target shooting called pocket revolvers, and that included 4" barrels, I believe.
I have a pair of 4" targets from 1910 that went to two pocket revolver shooters in St Louis.
The moral of this story is that the assumptions are critical to estimating the number of
surviving 4" .38 target revolvers. Change the numbers, and you'll get very different
results. For example changing the 10% assumption about fraction of 4" lengths to 1%
brings the estimate of survivors down to 200 guns, which is probably not enough.
Regards, Mike Priwer
OP
GRI
Member
Understand your theory and while I have many Smiths, my concentration has been on Colts. Based on that, I believe there are three factors to consider: First, few of these guns have appeared and two would be very unusual and not indicative of the norm. Second, I do not believe them to be a catalog gun, but rather, special order items. Last, so far the guns have appeared to be early in manufacture and may not have been available throughout the pre-WWII production range. I want to add, the survival rate would be much higher than a standard model due to the nature of use of the guns. Few would have seen combat, police use or use as a farm gun. Also, a person having a target pistol would in general be inclined to take better care of it.
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GRI
4" barrels were a cataloged offering, since 1899. Here is the relevant pages from the
1919 catalog. I can show you as many other years as you might like. Adjustable sights were always offered, at first as an option, and then later as part of the model identification.
They were available from 1899 through at least 1940 pre-WW2. I have several from 1899 forward.
It has been suggested that the survival rate for targets should be higher than M&P's.
I even suggested that in a presentation that I gave. However, I purposely assumed
25% for this discussion, and even then I get a large number of guns. Push it up to 50% and you'll get twice as many.
Its also true, as you note, that they are seldom seen. On the surface, that suggests that there should be very few. On the other hand, the number of people who participate in this forum is a rather small percentage of S&W owners. The S&W Collectors Assn has less than 3000 members, and we do have world-wide representation. Our gut feelings about the numbers of these guns is typically based on what we see offered for sale, and what is talked about on forums like this.
I think there are lots and lots of collectors that we don't know, and I think that lots of guns are passed down from generation to generation in a very private manner, and I think that a lot of gun owners keep their gun ownership private. There is always this nagging concern about gun confiscation, and its probably rather wide-spread.
A lot of countries either do not allow gun ownership, or have very rigid laws regarding gun ownership. No one wants the Feds knocking on their door, so they keep their guns to themselves.
The methodology for my estimation does document the relevant considerations, for making an estimate of number of 4" target revolvers. Perhaps you have another approach ?
Regards, Mike Priwer
4" barrels were a cataloged offering, since 1899. Here is the relevant pages from the
1919 catalog. I can show you as many other years as you might like. Adjustable sights were always offered, at first as an option, and then later as part of the model identification.
They were available from 1899 through at least 1940 pre-WW2. I have several from 1899 forward.
It has been suggested that the survival rate for targets should be higher than M&P's.
I even suggested that in a presentation that I gave. However, I purposely assumed
25% for this discussion, and even then I get a large number of guns. Push it up to 50% and you'll get twice as many.
Its also true, as you note, that they are seldom seen. On the surface, that suggests that there should be very few. On the other hand, the number of people who participate in this forum is a rather small percentage of S&W owners. The S&W Collectors Assn has less than 3000 members, and we do have world-wide representation. Our gut feelings about the numbers of these guns is typically based on what we see offered for sale, and what is talked about on forums like this.
I think there are lots and lots of collectors that we don't know, and I think that lots of guns are passed down from generation to generation in a very private manner, and I think that a lot of gun owners keep their gun ownership private. There is always this nagging concern about gun confiscation, and its probably rather wide-spread.
A lot of countries either do not allow gun ownership, or have very rigid laws regarding gun ownership. No one wants the Feds knocking on their door, so they keep their guns to themselves.
The methodology for my estimation does document the relevant considerations, for making an estimate of number of 4" target revolvers. Perhaps you have another approach ?
Regards, Mike Priwer
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DWalt
Member
The best I can say is "Not many." I don't remember seeing any early 4" target models. No way I could even begin to guess how many were made or how many of those survived.
OP
GRI
Member
GRI
4" barrels were a cataloged offering, since 1899. Here is the relevant pages from the
1919 catalog. I can show you as many other years as you might like. Adjustable sights were always offered, at first as an option, and then later as part of the model identification.
They were available from 1899 through at least 1940 pre-WW2. I have several from 1899 forward.
It has been suggested that the survival rate for targets should be higher than M&P's.
I even suggested that in a presentation that I gave. However, I purposely assumed
25% for this discussion, and even then I get a large number of guns. Push it up to 50% and you'll get twice as many.
Its also true, as you note, that they are seldom seen. On the surface, that suggests that there should be very few. On the other hand, the number of people who participate in this forum is a rather small percentage of S&W owners. The S&W Collectors Assn has less than 3000 members, and we do have world-wide representation. Our gut feelings about the numbers of these guns is typically based on what we see offered for sale, and what is talked about on forums like this.
I think there are lots and lots of collectors that we don't know, and I think that lots of guns are passed down from generation to generation in a very private manner, and I think that a lot of gun owners keep their gun ownership private. There is always this nagging concern about gun confiscation, and its probably rather wide-spread.
A lot of countries either do not allow gun ownership, or have very rigid laws regarding gun ownership. No one wants the Feds knocking on their door, so they keep their guns to themselves.
The methodology for my estimation does document the relevant considerations, for making an estimate of number of 4" target revolvers. Perhaps you have another approach ?
Regards, Mike Priwer
Thanks Mike for the excellent catalog pictures. It would be poor of me to denigrate your input after asking for it and I hope it was not taken that way. Colts tend to have precise information on these issues, whereas Smiths appear to be more of a wag.
Greg
Greg
That 4" target M&P is a great gun.
I don't see them very often, and I cannot ever remember seeing one for sale (and I look for these). The only ones that I recall seeing reside in Mike Priwer's collection (even though I'm sure I've seen one or two others over the years). When I saw your post originally, my thought was "this is a Mike Priwer question." For early prewar K-frames (especially the 4" barreled variety), Mike is my go to guy on the forum. We'd love to see some of your other S&Ws when you get a chance.
Thanks for sharing,
I have just one 4" and one 5". I have been beating the bushes, but have not seen another 4" for sale. I have seen one 5" that went at auction last January, for mega bucks, and recently one five inch that had been "restored" that looked so trashy I would not want it, even though the seller was pushing it as NOS.
Regards,
Bruce
Regards,
Bruce
tlay
US Veteran
What GUNS???? I lost all of them in that boating accident!!
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