M&P accuracy, what gives?

[Rastoff]

Rastoff, What barrel are you using?

I bought this one: Smith & Wesson Barrel S&W M&P 9mm Luger 4.25

It's a factory 4.25" M&P barrel. I got lucky and they had one in stock. I found two 9mm mags and I've shot about 200 rounds of 9mm through it at 7 yards. All shots were done off hand so, I didn't test it for actual accuracy. Still, I got the same size groups with it as I do with the factory .40S&W barrel.

 

[DanTana]

Rastoff, Thanks for the reply. I need to find one in the 5" range, preferably with a threaded barrel.

 

[Rastoff]

Let's talk about what accuracy really means. I have almost 30 years working as a Metrologist. Accuracy is something I deal with every day.

First, we have to define what accuracy means, then we have to understand what it takes to be accurate:

ac·cu·ra·cy
[ak-yer-uh-see] noun, plural ac·cu·ra·cies.
the condition or quality of being true, correct, or exact;

That's simple enough, but there is another aspect we must look at; precision. In the case of shooting, this is the definition of precision:

pre·ci·sion
[pri-sizh-uhn] noun
mechanical or scientific exactness:

These two terms are not interchangeable. Look at this picture:

So, the goal is to be accurate and precise with our shooting.

The chart also introduces two new, but important terms; reproducibility and systemic error. Reproducibility is the ability of a person/machine to do the same thing over and over as it was done before. Systemic error is the error contained within the entire system.

If the shooter cannot repeat the same thing to get the shot, the shot will never be accurate and precise.

When talking about shooting, the shooter is part of the system. Believe it or not, humans can be extremely consistent in what they do. Thus, the example in the upper right, could be due to the gun or the shooter because both are part of the system.

This is why shooting from a rest is so important. By shooting from a rest error due to human movement is significantly reduced. It cannot be eliminated completely because ultimately it takes a human to operate the gun. Even if you use a vice or something like a Ransom Rest, the gun still has to be aimed and manipulated by the shooter.

So, to combat these issues we start to look at things we can control. Here is another chart that is very useful:

This is an example of how the shooter can affect the shot. Is it perfect? No. But it does give us things to look at to improve our shooting.

The gun is still part of the system and still has error. The M&P doesn't have a stated accuracy from the factory. But, if it shoots a 1.5" group, from a rest, at 25' (feet) I'll bet that S&W will say it's within specifications.

 

[Rastoff]

Rastoff, Thanks for the reply. I need to find one in the 5" range, preferably with a threaded barrel.

StormLake | Build Your Barrel

 

[Doug M.]

There have been well documented problems with the accuracy of the M&P9s. Several very well qualified LE shooters have reported in detail about these problems and the efforts to correct them. (One can join LF ad read the reports if one desires - they go back some years.) They also showed comparison data with other 9mm pistols, and their testing involved a variety of good quality ball and service ammo. It's not a myth, but is sometimes inconsistent.

One of the issues was simply the wrong rifling in the 9mm barrels. Another has been poor to inconsistent lockup. Properly rifled, hand fit match barrels seem to address it most of the time, along with some other custom work. That should not be needed on a new pistol. Unfortunately, every maker seems to have some pigs in their catalog.

The same cannot be said of the .40. I am not aware of any generalized problems with accuracy and function with the M&P 40s of any size. If I were to have to carry a .40, it would be an M&P.

 

[kevin.andress]

The newest barrels seem to be eliminating the problems. And guys who are dropping the new barrels into their older MPs are reporting instant improvements.

 

[Rastoff]

There have been well documented problems with the accuracy of the M&P9s.

Yes, I have read some reports of the early 9mm guns having some issues. But, most of what we see here is not really an issue.

We have to remember this is a <$500 gun. I've seen several guys complaining that the gun wouldn't put round after round through the same hole at 25 yards. That's an exaggeration, but you get the idea.

These guns are relatively inexpensive self defense guns. As such it is unreasonable to expect perfect triggers and perfect accuracy out of them. So, any question of accuracy/precision has to be considered in the light of what they were made for.

 

[DanTana]

Went to the range yesterday, the first three shots from my M&P Pro Core .40L circled the bullseye. Then I got excited and started rushing my shots. Granted these are about 36-40' from the target roughly 12-13 yards. Using some PMC ammo I bought at the range. I guess I'm proud of this because up until a few months ago, I would of never been able to shoot even this well. Thank god for modern science/technology. I can't shoot iron sights hardly at all now. I have to use a red dot. This is with a Deltapoint 7.5 moa using the tip as the aiming point. I've been very pleased with the accuracy of this pistol.

 

[patsfan1281]

my problem is my hand is always moving..i can't seem to stay still with my gun. I have always had shaking hands ect whenever i do something and it really shows on the range...can't drink coffee at the range i guess anymore

 

[Bushmaster1911]

I'm a S&W fan from way back and still think their revolvers and 3rd Gen guns are as good as anything ever put out. I do have to also agree with the issues that have plagued them since they decided to chase after the Glock poly gun market.

You have to concede the Sigma was a huge mistake and not fit for release with that horrible trigger. Since then with all the "newer, better" versions of poly wonders they've corrected some things but they have still had issues. They still build the SD-VE line with a trigger too heavy for most novice shooters to easily become accustomed to. The lack of audible and felt reset on the M&Ps was another oversight.

The accuracy issues have been real. I saw the Hickok45 video above about accuracy but he also has videos on his experiences with the M&P guns. He loves the feel and doesn't bad mouth them, even though he's had multiple failures on camera with them, one serious and dangerous. When Hickok45 struggles to hit plates with them, you can bet it's not all novice shooters with accuracy issues.

I wanted badly to own an M&P9c but cannot bring myself to own one. I've seen and know of personally, too many issues to drop my hard earned $$$ on one. Until they get their act together on the poly guns I'm sticking to other choices. I'll still be buying their revolvers and will never part with my 3rd Gen, may add some more at some point. About the only S&W poly gun I'd buy is the Shield, good trigger and after the recall I think they finally got one right. Problem is, I already own 4 guns in that size range I'm happy with so I just don't need a Shield.

 

[g17]

I have a police trade in FS 9mm, test fire date 1/08, with the old style barrel and it is as accurate as I could hope for in any gun and never a failure yet regardless of ammo.

 

[Kitgun]

I've got a FS, Compact and a shield in 9mm all three seem to be dead on accurate for service type pistols. Here is Pic. of target from most recent range session, off hand slow fire @ 10-yards

 

[tbc]

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[38-55]

Why can't anyone admit that SOMETIMES the sights are not set right on handguns from the factory? I have had two cases (S&W and Ruger) where the fixed sights were off at 25 yards) verified by separate gunsmiths. Guns are put together and tested by HUMANS and we all know what humans are capable of.

 

[Rastoff]

38-85,
What's your point? We've said that very thing right in this thread. Look back at what's been written about accuracy. Then look at Kitgun's pic. Does his look off or is it OK?

 

[The Viking]

S&W M&P Barrels, An Informal Test | Modern Service Weapons

 

[JEG247]

Mine.. Full size. .40 and .45. Shoot to point of aim and always group very tight. The M&P is a pure combat handgun and as such is indeed combat accurate. However it's not and should not be a precision match .22 that can compete in the Olympics. There are other specifically designed and machined handguns for that type of task. My advice: to quote national champion Rob Leatham 1) You can't replace dry fire practice with real range sessions, 2) shoot more, 3) shoot better and 4) shoot more better.

 

[gdauth]

I see a lot of posts about the accuracy of M&P 9mm pistols. Seems like they are kind of hit or miss in the accuracy department. However, I don't see many complaining about it with the 40's, why is this?

If you want accuracy, get a good wheel gun. My revolvers will out shoot any of my semi autos except for my model 41.

 

[smokey0118]

10 shots from 30 ft with m&p9c...


m&p45, 3 mags through it at top target from 25 ft...1 mag through it at bottom target from 25 ft. It'll put up similar groups with either the threaded or nonthreaded barrel.

 

[smokey0118]

If you want accuracy, get a good wheel gun. My revolvers will out shoot any of my semi autos except for my model 41.

It depends to an extent. Many accurate wheelguns are in the $800-1200 price range. Thats typically where most rugers or s&w's fall in something 4"-6" in .357/.44/.45. When you think in terms of raw mechanical accuracy, semi-auto's actually have a few benefits that could lead to better accuracy.

With wheelguns, you've got 5-8 different chambers with 5-8 different leads up in to the forcing cone across a gap. Right there you've got a huge source of inconsistency. It's why accurate revolvers are typically relatively pricey. There's a lot of precise machining that needs to go in to production to ensure each chamber is consistent and the clyinder is trued on the crane.

In contrast, a semiauto has only 1 chamber...the one that's integral to the barrel. There's also no gap to jump or forcing cone to get squished in to. The main source of mechanical inconsistency is the locking areas on semiautos...which is cool because that's relatively easy to fix with a fitted barrel of good quality.

if you take the price difference of a typical s&w 686 and a s&w m&p, you can buy a barrel and have it fitted by a competent smith. They will fit the barrel to have a more complete, precise, and consistent engagement, probably lapping it in the process. Once this is done, it's reasonable to expect mechanical accuracy on par with or better than many revolvers.

Now revolvers do have some aspects to them that make mechanical accuracy seem to be superior based on how the shooter interfaces with the guns. For one, the triggers are WAAAAYY better in SA than your typical semi. Once broken in, or after a trigger job, it's easy to have a single-action trigger around 1 lb with no perceptible creep and extremely short overtravel. If you had a similar trigger on a semi, people would get much better accuracy...but it wouldn't exactly be the safest for the majority of the shooting public.

Also, the sight radius is much longer on your typical revolver. check the sight radius on a 6" 686 vs. an m&p. The revolver will likely have a longer sight radius and will therefor be more precise when aiming. Again, if the semi had the longer sight-radius, people would notice their groups shrinking pretty dramatically for the most part.

Also, I'm jealous of your 41. I have a perpetual hardon for that gun. Every one I've shot has been simply fantastic. They even seem to shoot crappy ammo well. When you put some quality ammo in them, you know anything other than a ragged hole is your fault. my walther sp22m3 is one accurate *** for what it is, but I've always wanted a 41 in the gun safe.