Stunning!!!
Nice find sir!
Nice find sir!
M&P - Modified and German Engraved After WWII
- Thread starter RKmesa
- Start date
ordnanceguy
Member
Hello Richard:
Your revolver was once a Lend Lease Victory Model. As revealed by the S&WCA's Victory Database it likely shipped from the factory in the September, 1944 time frame to the Hartford Ordnance Depot in Springfield, Mass.
I have seen quite a few Victory Model revolvers, both .38 S&W and .38 Special, that were engraved in West Germany after WW2. These guns were very inexpensive once surplused and were excellent vehicles by which German engravers could demonstrate their considerable skill. One of the engraved guns in the Database was reported to have been engraved in Darmstadt, West Germany by A. Reich. Perhaps that might be a clue as to who engraved your revolver.
Neat gun!
HTH.
Regards,
Charlie
Your revolver was once a Lend Lease Victory Model. As revealed by the S&WCA's Victory Database it likely shipped from the factory in the September, 1944 time frame to the Hartford Ordnance Depot in Springfield, Mass.
I have seen quite a few Victory Model revolvers, both .38 S&W and .38 Special, that were engraved in West Germany after WW2. These guns were very inexpensive once surplused and were excellent vehicles by which German engravers could demonstrate their considerable skill. One of the engraved guns in the Database was reported to have been engraved in Darmstadt, West Germany by A. Reich. Perhaps that might be a clue as to who engraved your revolver.
Neat gun!
HTH.
Regards,
Charlie
Thank you Charlie - very helpful!
So do you think the "V" was removed from the grip SN?
ordnanceguy
Member
Thank you Charlie - very helpful!
Yes, it was removed.
Glad to be of assistance.
Regards,
Charlie
I just realized that I posted no photos of some of the cooler features of this gun, namely:
The Back Strap...
The Front of the Grip Frame...
The Knuckle...
... and something that did not show up well in the photos I first posted - the Jeweling of the Hammer and Trigger
Thanks again for all your comments and observations and for you M&P experts confirming this gun as a Victory Model.
All the best,
The Back Strap...
The Front of the Grip Frame...
The Knuckle...
... and something that did not show up well in the photos I first posted - the Jeweling of the Hammer and Trigger
Thanks again for all your comments and observations and for you M&P experts confirming this gun as a Victory Model.
All the best,
Last edited:
You certainly found a treasure there. I've seen a few engraved Victory revolvers but none as nice as that one. Great addition!
Jeff
SWCA #1457
Jeff
SWCA #1457
Richard
Regarding the serial number, what is stamped on the rear face of the cylinder? Is there a V anywhere on the rear face of the cylinder? Does the cylinder chamber a 38 special, and if so have the chambers been bored through, to accommodate the longer cartridge? Will it chamber a 38 S&W?
Regards, Mike Priwer
Regarding the serial number, what is stamped on the rear face of the cylinder? Is there a V anywhere on the rear face of the cylinder? Does the cylinder chamber a 38 special, and if so have the chambers been bored through, to accommodate the longer cartridge? Will it chamber a 38 S&W?
Regards, Mike Priwer
Last edited:
I really like those grips...
...Ben
...BenThere is a "P", a "V" and the SN
It does not chamber a 38 Special, so it has not been bored. I did not have a 38 S&W round handy, but since that is what is barrel stamped, I believe that is what it will chamber...
Mike:
With the above, any thoughts?
Thanks,
Last edited:
Richard
Sure - the odds (2 out of 3 ) are that the serial number is V652268. The V is part of the serial number, so that is the number that you should use when asking Roy about the gun.
The chambering is consistent with the roll-marking on the barrel, so I'd say that its all original.
You might do one more check. Open the cylinder, push the extractor rod down all the way, and see what is stamped on the inside of the extractor star. It ought to be the serial number of the gun, with the V, but it might also be the work order number of the gun, which is stamped on the inside of the yoke.
The only question is - what happened to the V on the butt? In your pictures I can see the outline of the plug filling the hole for the lanyard. Typically the lanyards have a flange with a diameter larger than that of the lanyard stud that goes into the hole in the butt. That flange might have covered up the V, if the V were stamped right next to the 6. In that case, the V would have been stamped on the other end of the butt.
Maybe, when the gun was being cleaned up and engraved, and after the lanyard hole had been plugged, they didn't realize that the V was part of the serial number, and they filed it off. Maybe.
You also might ask about the meaning of the P that is stamped on both the barrel flat and the rear face of the cylinder. I've not seen that .
Try asking Roy about it, again. Point out the caliber as being 38 S&W, and ask if that is consistent with the records.
Good luck, Mike
Sure - the odds (2 out of 3 ) are that the serial number is V652268. The V is part of the serial number, so that is the number that you should use when asking Roy about the gun.
The chambering is consistent with the roll-marking on the barrel, so I'd say that its all original.
You might do one more check. Open the cylinder, push the extractor rod down all the way, and see what is stamped on the inside of the extractor star. It ought to be the serial number of the gun, with the V, but it might also be the work order number of the gun, which is stamped on the inside of the yoke.
The only question is - what happened to the V on the butt? In your pictures I can see the outline of the plug filling the hole for the lanyard. Typically the lanyards have a flange with a diameter larger than that of the lanyard stud that goes into the hole in the butt. That flange might have covered up the V, if the V were stamped right next to the 6. In that case, the V would have been stamped on the other end of the butt.
Maybe, when the gun was being cleaned up and engraved, and after the lanyard hole had been plugged, they didn't realize that the V was part of the serial number, and they filed it off. Maybe.
You also might ask about the meaning of the P that is stamped on both the barrel flat and the rear face of the cylinder. I've not seen that .
Try asking Roy about it, again. Point out the caliber as being 38 S&W, and ask if that is consistent with the records.
Good luck, Mike
If the V was stamped in lightly, the engraver likely just filed and then polished the area smooth to blend in with the other end. You won't necessarily see a low area in the steel if done right.
If the V was heavily stamped into the gun, then some engravers will simply fill the V with a 'steel' inlay. The same process as if it were being gold or silver inlaid.
Once done and polished off,,and if you use a correct filler 'steel' the old letter will dissappear.
It will generally not show when blued , Hot Salt or Rust blued.
It's a quick process if you are used to doing it.
I use it a lot to fill damaged areas. I have had poor results with welding up damage or marks and not them having them show up either 'In the White' or when blued later. Hard sports in the weld & pits are other issues.
But, sometimes the gun planets allaign and things go well.
If the V was heavily stamped into the gun, then some engravers will simply fill the V with a 'steel' inlay. The same process as if it were being gold or silver inlaid.
Once done and polished off,,and if you use a correct filler 'steel' the old letter will dissappear.
It will generally not show when blued , Hot Salt or Rust blued.
It's a quick process if you are used to doing it.
I use it a lot to fill damaged areas. I have had poor results with welding up damage or marks and not them having them show up either 'In the White' or when blued later. Hard sports in the weld & pits are other issues.
But, sometimes the gun planets allaign and things go well.
"Thank you" to all of you for your input and comments. In addition to the relatively simple BUT well laid-out pattern (masterfully executed) and the the added rib, some of the small master engraver touches to this gun, that make me appreciate it more and more, include:
1. It was used for the purpose it was intended for. Lots of holster wear, and each of the screw heads show signs of being removed often (I do wish the prior owner had a better fitting hollow ground screwdriver...
:rolleyes):
2. Flattened and engraved screw heads that appear to be "clocked"
Although still domed, the cylinder lock spring retention screw (in front of the trigger) it is still engraved and clocked:
[
3. The grip screw head and tip are both engraved:
4. I just love the backstrap!!! The bluing is mostly worn off from use, leaving it more of a French gray on the flats, with the darker blue still in the cuts and punch recesses (I captured it better in this photo)...
5. And the color, feel and fit of the grips is amazing to me...
Thanks again,
1. It was used for the purpose it was intended for. Lots of holster wear, and each of the screw heads show signs of being removed often (I do wish the prior owner
:rolleyes):
2. Flattened and engraved screw heads that appear to be "clocked"
Although still domed, the cylinder lock spring retention screw (in front of the trigger) it is still engraved and clocked:
[
3. The grip screw head and tip are both engraved:
4. I just love the backstrap!!! The bluing is mostly worn off from use, leaving it more of a French gray on the flats, with the darker blue still in the cuts and punch recesses (I captured it better in this photo)...
5. And the color, feel and fit of the grips is amazing to me...
Thanks again,
Last edited:
Jim Watson
Member
I have seen ribs like that on plain revolvers. Catching up with the post war upgrade no doubt.
Wow, and beautiful mix of elegant and rustic.
I just have to give a shout out to Charlie, who gave the most informative presentation on the Victory model at the Summer 2024 SWCA Symposium. THANK YOU - IT WAS A VERY impressive presentation!!!
Now, if I could only remember more of it...
The S&W M&P .38 S&W revolvers must have been available in Germany after WWII. I have a cousin that was in the army stationed in Germany after WWII and he bought a plained blued one back with he came back.
I like that. I especially like the usage wear. Someone used their 'BBQ gun' a lot.
Shootgood
Member
Outstanding
