There is a lot that I like about this one, not the least of which is the fact it was not only beautifully engraved, but carried, used, and appreciated. This one definitely has a history I would love to learn! Those stags are amazing!
M&P - Modified and German Engraved After WWII
- Thread starter RKmesa
- Start date
Richard, very nice as always. Love seeing your acquisitions.
I have some questions about the gun itself.
I want to start with a statement by Roy Jinks.
In "History of Smith & Wesson" he says.......
The most important variation of the .38 M&P is a group of revolvers produced for the British Commonwealth nations. These are identical to the .38 Hand Ejector Model of 1905 Fourth Change, except they were chambered for the .38 S&W instead of the .38 S&W Special cartridge. Because this cartridge was loaded with a 200-grain, round nose, lead bullet, the revolver was nicknamed the .38/200 British Service revolver.
Is your gun a BSR?
Were there .38 M&Ps in .38 S&W that were not BSRs?
Is the box you show correct for this gun?
In SCSW 4th the lowest number I see for a BSR says beginning around 680,000. Your gun 652,268.
History of Smith & Wesson says production began March 11, 1940 but does not list a starting number.
I have some questions about the gun itself.
I want to start with a statement by Roy Jinks.
In "History of Smith & Wesson" he says.......
The most important variation of the .38 M&P is a group of revolvers produced for the British Commonwealth nations. These are identical to the .38 Hand Ejector Model of 1905 Fourth Change, except they were chambered for the .38 S&W instead of the .38 S&W Special cartridge. Because this cartridge was loaded with a 200-grain, round nose, lead bullet, the revolver was nicknamed the .38/200 British Service revolver.
Is your gun a BSR?
Were there .38 M&Ps in .38 S&W that were not BSRs?
Is the box you show correct for this gun?
In SCSW 4th the lowest number I see for a BSR says beginning around 680,000. Your gun 652,268.
History of Smith & Wesson says production began March 11, 1940 but does not list a starting number.
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DWalt
Member
Its SN would put its shipment to probably be in 1936, plus or minus a year. Therefore it could not be a BSR. It is possible that it could have a substituted barrel and cylinder. What are the SNs on the barrel and cylinder?
Richard,
First of all congratulations on your new acquisition. It found a very fitting place to be enjoyed and admired.
Were it not for the Red Stag grips, which to me are exhibition quality, I would have never guessed that the engraving was German or Austrian in origin. I found the engraving so pleasing that it had an almost International style not typed to a particular era or location.
Thanks very much for sharing and for the exposure you offer to all.
First of all congratulations on your new acquisition. It found a very fitting place to be enjoyed and admired.
Were it not for the Red Stag grips, which to me are exhibition quality, I would have never guessed that the engraving was German or Austrian in origin. I found the engraving so pleasing that it had an almost International style not typed to a particular era or location.
Thanks very much for sharing and for the exposure you offer to all.
OP
I know very little about the M&Ps, as I own very few of them. I saw DWalt, responded above with this:
I do not know if the box is the correct or not. It does not number to the gun, but it is for the correct 5" barrel length. The box SN is 650747, only 1521 SNs lower than the gun.
It was a box that I purchased years ago (for about $35 or so if I recall correctly). I never had anything to put in it, and since I like to store my guns in a period correct box, this one seemed to fit the bill... AND I really like the "patent boxes" - guns just look cool in them. Hopefully, someone will correct me if I've got the wrong era box.
The SN on the barrel and cylinder match, but the SN on the barrel has a "V" in front of it (there is no "V" on the butt SN)... One knowledgeable forum member thinks that it is a Victory model, but that the V was somehow removed from the butt when the gun was prep'd/buffed for engraving.
I have a ship date request into Roy, so hopefully I will find out something that adds a little more light on this...
M&P, 5", Blue, 652268
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Jim Watson
Member
I am not very knowledgeable, but it makes sense to me that Herman the German engraver did not realize the "V" on the far side of the lanyard loop was part of the serial number.
DWalt
Member
Logical that the V on the butt was somehow removed or worked into the engraving.
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OP
Unfortunately, Roy says that 652268 is "open on the books" so that he cannot help with a ship date... 
[UPDATE: It seems to be unanimous that the V was removed from the bottom of the grip frame, (most likely in the engraving process) - thank you all. I asked Roy for a ship date for V652268 and he says that it shipped in September 1944. That also means that it probably shipped in one of those plane brown cardboard boxes, rather than the "patent" style box show above.]
[UPDATE: It seems to be unanimous that the V was removed from the bottom of the grip frame, (most likely in the engraving process) - thank you all. I asked Roy for a ship date for V652268 and he says that it shipped in September 1944. That also means that it probably shipped in one of those plane brown cardboard boxes, rather than the "patent" style box show above.]
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652268 is open on the books. I wonder about V652268?
Think it is time for the Victory experts.
V652268 on the barrel.
652268 on the cylinder.
Also think I can see evidence in the photos of a butt swivel.
Would that be consistent with a Victory revolver?
Think it is time for the Victory experts.
V652268 on the barrel.
652268 on the cylinder.
Also think I can see evidence in the photos of a butt swivel.
Would that be consistent with a Victory revolver?
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It's definitely been plugged...
...Ben
Stunning!!!
Nice find sir!
Nice find sir!
ordnanceguy
Member
Hello Richard:
Your revolver was once a Lend Lease Victory Model. As revealed by the S&WCA's Victory Database it likely shipped from the factory in the September, 1944 time frame to the Hartford Ordnance Depot in Springfield, Mass.
I have seen quite a few Victory Model revolvers, both .38 S&W and .38 Special, that were engraved in West Germany after WW2. These guns were very inexpensive once surplused and were excellent vehicles by which German engravers could demonstrate their considerable skill. One of the engraved guns in the Database was reported to have been engraved in Darmstadt, West Germany by A. Reich. Perhaps that might be a clue as to who engraved your revolver.
Neat gun!
HTH.
Regards,
Charlie
Your revolver was once a Lend Lease Victory Model. As revealed by the S&WCA's Victory Database it likely shipped from the factory in the September, 1944 time frame to the Hartford Ordnance Depot in Springfield, Mass.
I have seen quite a few Victory Model revolvers, both .38 S&W and .38 Special, that were engraved in West Germany after WW2. These guns were very inexpensive once surplused and were excellent vehicles by which German engravers could demonstrate their considerable skill. One of the engraved guns in the Database was reported to have been engraved in Darmstadt, West Germany by A. Reich. Perhaps that might be a clue as to who engraved your revolver.
Neat gun!
HTH.
Regards,
Charlie
OP
Thank you Charlie - very helpful!
So do you think the "V" was removed from the grip SN?
ordnanceguy
Member
Thank you Charlie - very helpful!
Yes, it was removed.
Glad to be of assistance.
Regards,
Charlie
OP
I just realized that I posted no photos of some of the cooler features of this gun, namely:
The Back Strap...
The Front of the Grip Frame...
The Knuckle...
... and something that did not show up well in the photos I first posted - the Jeweling of the Hammer and Trigger
Thanks again for all your comments and observations and for you M&P experts confirming this gun as a Victory Model.
All the best,
The Back Strap...
The Front of the Grip Frame...
The Knuckle...
... and something that did not show up well in the photos I first posted - the Jeweling of the Hammer and Trigger
Thanks again for all your comments and observations and for you M&P experts confirming this gun as a Victory Model.
All the best,
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You certainly found a treasure there. I've seen a few engraved Victory revolvers but none as nice as that one. Great addition!
Jeff
SWCA #1457
Jeff
SWCA #1457
Richard
Regarding the serial number, what is stamped on the rear face of the cylinder? Is there a V anywhere on the rear face of the cylinder? Does the cylinder chamber a 38 special, and if so have the chambers been bored through, to accommodate the longer cartridge? Will it chamber a 38 S&W?
Regards, Mike Priwer
Regarding the serial number, what is stamped on the rear face of the cylinder? Is there a V anywhere on the rear face of the cylinder? Does the cylinder chamber a 38 special, and if so have the chambers been bored through, to accommodate the longer cartridge? Will it chamber a 38 S&W?
Regards, Mike Priwer
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I really like those grips...
...Ben
...Ben
OP
There is a "P", a "V" and the SN
It does not chamber a 38 Special, so it has not been bored. I did not have a 38 S&W round handy, but since that is what is barrel stamped, I believe that is what it will chamber...
Mike:
With the above, any thoughts?
Thanks,
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Richard
Sure - the odds (2 out of 3 ) are that the serial number is V652268. The V is part of the serial number, so that is the number that you should use when asking Roy about the gun.
The chambering is consistent with the roll-marking on the barrel, so I'd say that its all original.
You might do one more check. Open the cylinder, push the extractor rod down all the way, and see what is stamped on the inside of the extractor star. It ought to be the serial number of the gun, with the V, but it might also be the work order number of the gun, which is stamped on the inside of the yoke.
The only question is - what happened to the V on the butt? In your pictures I can see the outline of the plug filling the hole for the lanyard. Typically the lanyards have a flange with a diameter larger than that of the lanyard stud that goes into the hole in the butt. That flange might have covered up the V, if the V were stamped right next to the 6. In that case, the V would have been stamped on the other end of the butt.
Maybe, when the gun was being cleaned up and engraved, and after the lanyard hole had been plugged, they didn't realize that the V was part of the serial number, and they filed it off. Maybe.
You also might ask about the meaning of the P that is stamped on both the barrel flat and the rear face of the cylinder. I've not seen that .
Try asking Roy about it, again. Point out the caliber as being 38 S&W, and ask if that is consistent with the records.
Good luck, Mike
Sure - the odds (2 out of 3 ) are that the serial number is V652268. The V is part of the serial number, so that is the number that you should use when asking Roy about the gun.
The chambering is consistent with the roll-marking on the barrel, so I'd say that its all original.
You might do one more check. Open the cylinder, push the extractor rod down all the way, and see what is stamped on the inside of the extractor star. It ought to be the serial number of the gun, with the V, but it might also be the work order number of the gun, which is stamped on the inside of the yoke.
The only question is - what happened to the V on the butt? In your pictures I can see the outline of the plug filling the hole for the lanyard. Typically the lanyards have a flange with a diameter larger than that of the lanyard stud that goes into the hole in the butt. That flange might have covered up the V, if the V were stamped right next to the 6. In that case, the V would have been stamped on the other end of the butt.
Maybe, when the gun was being cleaned up and engraved, and after the lanyard hole had been plugged, they didn't realize that the V was part of the serial number, and they filed it off. Maybe.
You also might ask about the meaning of the P that is stamped on both the barrel flat and the rear face of the cylinder. I've not seen that .
Try asking Roy about it, again. Point out the caliber as being 38 S&W, and ask if that is consistent with the records.
Good luck, Mike
