M&P Target 38 - Odd Hammer Checkering

SFIDEC

SFIDEC

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Couldn't resist purchasing this Target Model M&P at local Birmingham AGCA show this past weekend. Even though it has been re-blued and has an odd hammer, I just couldn't pass on it at $400. It came with the stags and non-medallion stocks that are not numbered to the gun. Serial number is 667186.
I'd appreciate if someone can identify the hammer or comment on how it was modified. Hopefully there are enough picture angles to help out.
Oh...It is an excellent shooter.
Looking forward to comments.
Thank you,
Ray
 

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Some factory information about the Hump Back Hammer.......
f93052d5ecaf4696fb42e2a2b32ecea1.jpg


and this is what the checkering looks like from the top of the Hump Back Hammer on my 4" RM.......
0af7a0550e879e7d03b6b854e0620dd7.jpg
 
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The hammer is worth what you paid for the gun!

The hammer was introduced for the ".357 Registered Magnum" ~1935, which was a custom order only N frame model, and the hammer was optional. Also offered as an option on the K frame models but rarely seen.

The checkering looks odd because it's square checkering, not the usual diamond checkering, and matched the square checkered top strap of the .357 Magnum (shown above) which is still a distinctive feature of the Model 27. The pre war humpback hammer for the .357 Mag N frame also had these distinctive circular grooved sides:

humpback.jpg

Photo credit: Peter M. Eick


The standard .357 Mag hammer also had the sq checkering, as well as the grooved sides:

DSC_0014.jpg

Photo credit: ditrina

Congrats on such a great find at a great price!
 
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An interesting gun.

I'm wondering about the S on the barrel flat. Clearly this isn't a postwar revolver, so perhaps the S is from the Service Department. Is there a date code on the left side of the grip frame? Or a star on the butt?
 
JP@AK said:
An interesting gun.

I'm wondering about the S on the barrel flat. Clearly this isn't a postwar revolver, so perhaps the S is from the Service Department. Is there a date code on the left side of the grip frame? Or a star on the butt?
Click to expand...

___________________________________________________
Jack,
I didn't take picture of grip frame and didn't recognize any unusual stampings while grips were off. I'm seeing a "B" on the barrel flat prior to Serial Number and not a "S".
Thanks for looking and commenting on my latest find. I'll check tonight and see if I overlooked anything on the grip frame.
Ray
 
JP@AK said:
An interesting gun.

I'm wondering about the S on the barrel flat. Clearly this isn't a postwar revolver, so perhaps the S is from the Service Department. Is there a date code on the left side of the grip frame? Or a star on the butt?
Click to expand...

With the light reflection, the B does look like an S!

But the S for service dept will never be in that position, only following the serial # on the barrel.

Good question about a star on the butt. I'd be tempted to letter that gun. If the hammer "letters" to the gun as original, that's a special order gun. Or if there is a star, special even if installed by the factory later.
 
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Seeing this post reminds me of an old one of mine about a 4th Change K target with a humpback hammer I asked about back in 2015.


A Humpback hammer question...


Mine was shipped in 10/40, but I never lettered it because it went back to the mother ship in '75, most likely for a reblue and barrel change, as it now has a 5", later style non-ribbed barrel and extractor rod. My understanding is that w/o a name, the service records would be unobtainable, so it wouldn't help. It does make me wonder if the HBH was a special order, or later addition though.


RWJ
 
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RWJ said:
Seeing this post reminds me of an old one of mine about a 4th Change K target with a humpback hammer I asked about back in 2015.


A Humpback hammer question...


Mine was shipped in 10/40, but I never lettered it because it went back to the mother ship in '75, most likely for a reblue and barrel change, as it now has a 5", later style non-ribbed barrel and extractor rod. My understanding is that w/o a name, the service records would be unobtainable, so it wouldn't help. It does make me wonder if the HBH was a special order, or later addition though.


RWJ
Click to expand...

Once you have the letter, archived records can usually be found if any exist.
 
The meaning of the 'S' remains a mystery to this day. Its possible that the gun went back to the factory, maybe for the HB hammer, and its possible that the service dept stamped the 'S' at that time. I rather doubt it, but possible.

I wrote a S&WCA Journal story ( Vol 53 No 2 Sept 2019 ) that involved revolvers with an 'S' stamp. It appears that there was an inconsistent use of the 'S' in 1946. Generally is was the first character of post-WW2 serial numbers. But, it was also stamped, not always, on frames and barrels and cylinders of guns that are in the pre-WW2 serial number series, but shipped post-WW2 in 1946. These guns, like the one in this thread, have the pre-WW2 hammer safety.

If that is what is going on with this gun, a letter ought to show it being shipped post-WW2.

The questionable appearance of the checkering on the rear-portion of the hammer tang may be a property of the lighting, and angle, of the photo. Possibly a straight-on picture of the hammer tang will resolve that issue.

Regards, Mike Priwer
 
merl67 said:
I'd a broke my wrist getting my wallet out, nice to see deals are still out there.
Click to expand...

I carry my gun money in a quart size Zip-Lock bag. Probably made the seller of this 38 Target feel sorry for me and came off price $50. LOL
Here is the story...It sat on the private seller's table all day Saturday & most of Sunday. I saw it Sunday morning and talked with seller about it. He told me it had been re-blued and he'd had it a long time. I liked the stag grips, unusual hammer, and it was a target 38. What not to like? Offered $400, he slightly hesitated, stuck his hand out, and we shook on it.
The turnout for the show was tremendous, especially on Saturday. I'd estimate there were 400 dealer tables. Folks were buying guns like crazy but even more were purchasing ammo at prices that I still can't wrap my head around.
Anyway, its so great to be back at gun shows.
Ray
 
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The questionable appearance of the checkering on the rear-portion of the hammer tang may be a property of the lighting, and angle, of the photo. Possibly a straight-on picture of the hammer tang will resolve that issue.

Regards, Mike Priwer[/QUOTE]
___________________________________________________
Mike,
The rear portion of the hammer tang checkering has me wondering what's going on too. It's like two different patterns. I will take a straight-on picture tonight and maybe it will shed some light.
Thanks for sharing your research about the "S" stampings.
I've requested a ship date from Mr. Jinks earlier today.
Ray
 
mikepriwer said:
The meaning of the 'S' remains a mystery to this day. Its possible that the gun went back to the factory, maybe for the HB hammer, and its possible that the service dept stamped the 'S' at that time. I rather doubt it, but possible.

I wrote a S&WCA Journal story ( Vol 53 No 2 Sept 2019 ) that involved revolvers with an 'S' stamp. It appears that there was an inconsistent use of the 'S' in 1946. Generally is was the first character of post-WW2 serial numbers. But, it was also stamped, not always, on frames and barrels and cylinders of guns that are in the pre-WW2 serial number series, but shipped post-WW2 in 1946. These guns, like the one in this thread, have the pre-WW2 hammer safety.

If that is what is going on with this gun, a letter ought to show it being shipped post-WW2.

The questionable appearance of the checkering on the rear-portion of the hammer tang may be a property of the lighting, and angle, of the photo. Possibly a straight-on picture of the hammer tang will resolve that issue.

Regards, Mike Priwer
Click to expand...

There's no S on the barrel. I don't think this gun is involved with the post war safety S mystery; it doesn't have the post war sliding bar safety (or hammer notched for it). And unless there's an S on the grip frame, neither is the service S involved.
 
SFIDEC.....You had the gall to talk the guy down $50? Good Lord! Had I tried that, he would have told me to come back towards the end of the show. And I would have, and it would have been gone.
And the next day it would have been for sale online for $850.
This has happened to me.
 
The orignal posters picture with the side plate removed put a question in my mind to ask
the members that have experience w these
early long actions.
My question is ..Are the early DA sears interchangeable between N ans K hammers as
they are on the later short action K L N
Hammers?
I have a new 1917 model N hammer that I need
to locate the DA sear and pin for..The stirrups
are the same I believe between the early
hammers. Are the DA action K & N sears the same?
Thanks for letting me interject my question
guys.😁😁
Best Randy..
 
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The checkering on your hammer is no big mystery. The cross cuts on the rear portion simply did not get cut well. All the cuts should be the same depth.


attachment.php




Any K or N frame model could be ordered with a HBH except for the K-22/40. I've owned numerous K Targets with the HBH, and currently have an M&P with one.
 

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Any K or N frame model could be ordered with a HBH except for the K-22/40.
Click to expand...
I've seen pictures of a .22 Outdoorsman from 1939 that lettered with a humpback hammer.


And, I thought I saw a K-22/40 recently with one...interesting. Learn something every day here.
 
Here are a couple of straight-on pictures for evaluation. All I know is I've about gone cross eyed trying to take pictures of a checkering illusion.
Only posting right side picture of grip frame as there are no markings/stampings on left side.
Mr. Jinks has provided me with ship date of December 1939.
Thanks for all the great input and comments!
Ray
 

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fleabus101 said:
The orignal posters picture with the side plate removed put a question in my mind to ask
the members that have experience w these
early long actions.
My question is ..Are the early DA sears interchangeable between N ans K hammers as
they are on the later short action K L N
Hammers?
I have a new 1917 model N hammer that I need
to locate the DA sear and pin for..The stirrups
are the same I believe between the early
hammers. Are the DA action K & N sears the same?
Thanks for letting me interject my question
guys.😁😁
Best Randy..
Click to expand...

I probably have an extra DA sear in my parts box. I'm sure I don't have a new one though. PM me if interested.
 
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I have an M&P with the Humpback hammer that was shipped June 1938. The back half of the hammer spur is also not cut as deep across as the front half. Was the checkering done by hand? Or was it a machine operation that had two setups for the two angled planes of the spur? If so maybe the operator did not fully engage the machine for the second operation for the back half of the hammer spur.

This is purely a wild guess on my part. Like all things S&W... maybe, maybe not. I hope I don't stay awake tonight trying to figure this out!
 
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The checkering on the hammer spur is case hardened of course, therefore too hard to be cut deeper with a checkering file unless the hammer spur is annealed.

But I would complete the checkering with a V shaped stone of proper angle which will cut the case hardened surface. There's enough of the grooves there to use as a guide to deepen them and complete the checkering pattern with the stone; nice easy flat surface. Piece o' cake.

Or even easier with a little more skill, 'dress down' a cut off wheel to the proper sharp angle, clamp the Dremel tool in a vise, and hold the 'work' in hand.

I wouldn't leave as is on such a nice gun and special hammer if it were mine.
 
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