M&P Target with a interesting rear leaf design.

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Check out the interesting rear leaf screw design on this MP Target.

It's has the earlier one screw sight on top but has a second screw behind the blade in a milled out area.

My guess is maybe S&W tinkered with this design before going to the two screw version?

Seems a bit involved to be gun smith work.

Just a moment...

I would be curious who it letters to.
 
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"paplinker"and I discussed this sight awhile back, and with very little prompting from him I came to also believe this might very well be a factory design---experimental at the time---or in VERY limited production immediately preceding the so-called "two screw" sight (the very first from S&W that won't "shoot loose" when properly adjusted and locked---Design #14 in Bob Neal's 1977 article (The Evolution of Smith & Wesson Target Sights)---which is available here on the forum-----somewhere.)

#14 won't "shoot loose" by virtue of the fact (when locked) the screw immediately in front of the aft screw is bearing against the frame, and the aft screw is pulling against frame (when properly adjusted and locked)---via a flange nut residing in a slot milled in the frame. What's noteworthy about the flange nut as it relates to this discussion is design #13 (which this sight appears to have been before it was modified) also employs a flange nut in concert with the elevation adjusting screw----never mind it's not pulling (or pushing) against anything---or is it?

I came to be acquainted with Neal after stumbling upon another rear sight not treated in the article (the Large Screw Spring Up model---(1911 to 1922-23). One thing led to another, and he asked me to update his article---as he had moved on to fascination with, and study of, something else, Packard automobiles or some sort of aircraft or marine engine of yesteryear. I decided to leave well enough alone, having no interest in seeming to be upstaging Bob on the one hand, and an entirely satisfactory update would be to simply change the dates on the sights following the Spring-Up sight.

The bottom line at this point is I have Neal's entire file which I supposed covered the research for the article performed by him and a legion of helpers, and offered to hunt it up to see if this sight here was found during the research-----and found in whatever numbers Neal determined to satisfactory---from the standpoint of the credibility he desired.

That proved to be easier said than done, but I finally found the file---just a few days ago, and it is not what I'd supposed it would be---which is to say there is no correspondence from Neal's helpers treating with their sightings/observations of the various sights. So much for that!

All that aside, that which suggests this sight may very well be either an experimental sight by S&W, or even a sight in (very limited) production is the supposition at this point that the elevation screw goes into a flange nut. Does it?

That being the case, this sight would work exactly the same as Design #14----just backwards in that the aft screw on this sight bears against the frame (if that's the case).

If (IF) this is either an experimental or limited production sight from S&W, they moved on to Design 14 for the very simple fact Design 14 costs less to manufacture than this one. Design 14 is Design 13 with one hole drilled and tapped in the sight tang--and an added screw (instead of milling a recess in the sight carrier for the aft screw, AND drilling and tapping the screw hole as is the case with this gun. The aft screw on this sight very likely bears against the frame, and if so, serves the very same purpose as does the screw immediately in front of the aft screw on Design 14.

Given that all this may be as clear as mud, here's how the "two screw" sight is to be adjusted and locked: Make the initial elevation adjustment with the aft screw---get close. Make the final elevation adjustment with the screw immediately in front of the aft screw. At this point, turn the aft screw counterclockwise as far as it will go. You're done! (The screw immediately in front of the aft screw is bearing against the frame. The aft screw (in concert with its flange nut riding in a slot milled in the frame) is pulling against the frame. Given that the aft screw on this gun bears against the frame, and the screw immediately in front of it goes into a flange nut, you have the exact same thing going for you---except that the pushing and pulling screws are reversed in position.

Ralph Tremaine

As a belated aside, if you have not yet removed this sight from the gun (and if, in fact, the elevation screw goes into a flange nut), here's how to remove the sight: Remove the far forward screw. If, at this point, you can not simply lift the sight straight up and off, pull the assembly to the rear a bit---and lift it up. Given the presence of a flange nut, pulling the assembly to the rear a bit will clear the flange on the nut from its slot in the frame. Given the likelihood the far forward screw is not the least bit inclined to move, raise the elevation of the sight carrier until the sight clears its channel. Then secure the gun upright with the muzzle lower than the sight. (Remove the grips, and secure the grip frame in a vise.) Now pour some of your favorite screw "unsticker" juice into the sight channel, where it will run down toward the screw, and have direct access to the screw threads. The screw will become unstuck a whole lot quicker than if you pour the juice on the screw head---again and again and again---ad nauseum!! (Kroil is about the best "unsticker" juice there is.)
 
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I cannot tell for sure, but think that the blade is standard for the period. Compared to my 1920s and 1930s target revolvers, it looks the same. Early K frame targets had a thin blade. Below is the Bob Neal rear sight design as Ralph described. Measuring my 1930s blades, I get .045" thick.

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Gary's correct, the blades are identical. Not counting the blades for the sights on top breaks, and the later ones on the so-called "Micrometer" sight, there are just two different blades---and both are easy enough for you to make---when you manage to lose one---and it seems like folks are always managing to lose one.

And speaking of blades, more like the little bitty screws used to move them, Lowes has a Precision Screwdriver Set (Kobalt brand). The part number is 0525844. The best part about them is their handles are hand size instead of finger size as is the case with the so-called Jeweler's screwdrivers. Don't be put off by the low price, they're not junk, and two of the flat blade tools will fit all the screws used on these sights---even the little bitty ones used to attach them to the gun.

Ralph Tremaine
 
As an aside of little consequence, because you'd soon figure it out for yourself, Bob Neal's description of the "short screw" and its use for Design 14 is incorrect--more like incomplete. It's half of the locking system, and doesn't do diddly without the other half.

Ralph Tremaine
 
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This is a very valuable thread for anyone getting aquainted with the pre-war target sights.
So much great information.

I always use the “subscribe to thread” tool to help keep track of these especially noteworthy threads.

Thanks!
Jim

You’re darn right. When Ralph talks, I listen.
 
As yet another belated tid-bit for those who shoot a gun with the "two screw" sight, one full turn of an adjusting screw moves the point of impact one inch for each ten yards of range.

I didn't shoot the guns in my collection, so haven't tested this; but know this sight came into being in the early thirties, and was THE sight on all the K and N frame target grade guns right on up until they stopped civilian production-----the 22/40 being the only exception that comes to mind.

I suspect this adjustment formula goes way back---simply because I'm hard pressed to come up with a reason why they would have changed it; but if anybody knows different, speak up.

Ralph Tremaine
 
I believe this is a factory design. I have seen it on several guns (a few Kit Guns and some Target sighted K-Frames IIRC). And I recall having discussions on this topic in some other threads. I think the one-screw-in-fron-one-screw-in-back of the blade design is a bit more cumbersome than the two-screw-in-front of the blade pre-war configuration that eventually won out. However, I think the concept of the locking screw is the same.

Here is a thread that also has some discussion of this sight...

https://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-h...man-rear-sight.html?highlight=two-screw+sight

... and the always helpful sight post from Handejector - thank you Lee!!!

The forward of the two rear screws is the "Check elevation screw". It checks, as in STOPS movement.

LOOSEN it to start with- turn it to the left. If you loosen it too much, it will FALL OUT. Forget about it for now.

The rearmost screw is the elevation screw. Notice it has a FOOT that fits in a slot in the frame. It is a normal right hand thread. Turning it to the right RAISES the rear sight by jacking it up, so turning it left LOWERS the rear sight by pulling it toward the frame.

Once the rear sight is adjusted, turn the CHECK screw gently to the right and snug it against the frame. You are trying to put the two screws in a bind against each other to keep the elevation screw from moving.

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The narrative and photos above illustrate Design 14---undressed.

The attending description goes halfway. AFTER you've snugged the check screw against the frame in achieving the final elevation setting is when you back the elevation screw all the way back---such that it's pulling against the frame. Dismiss any thought you may be altering the elevation setting----you can't. The check screw is against the frame.

Ralph Tremaine
 
Thanks for posting about the Pre War rear sight. I have a pre war OD and was wondering about the 2 screws, now I know. Thanks again, Bill
 
I have just lettered the M&P Target that began this discussion. The letter states that six .38 M&P Targets, all of the same configuration, were ordered and shipped (11/23/1932) thru a NYC jobber (George F Herold Co) and were delivered to the Leona (Leonia?), NJ Police Department.
The order requested "with extra sight leaf screw" on these revolvers, which was invoiced at an additional $1 each.
Associated papers included with the letter also mention seven Outdoorsman's shipping to Borough of Bogota, Bergen County, NJ at the same time. "Affidavit supplied" and no tax was charged.
 
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