M&P40 sights issue

[DIYguy]

Did a search but didn't find an answer.
Added an M&P40 to the collection and took it to the range the first week. Put about 70 rounds through it and every shot was about 4" left and 2" down. Consistent group. Shot the M&P22 same sight picture and nice 5" group on center at 25'. Same with my Baby Eagle 9. Next week same guns, same results. Asked the gun smith at the range if he could check the sights and he flat out said we don't do that it's just the way you shoot it. Thought it was worth checking if they had a bore laser they could check the sights against but was blown off as "crappy shot"
Third week took a friend and he brought his pistol bench to check the sights. He's an experienced shooter and with the pistol bench rest had the same grouping with three mags. He confirmed "it's the gun. We didn't have a problem with any of the other guns we shot including a Glock 17, 19 and M&P9, just the M&P40
Anyone else run into a new gun consistently that far off?

 

[DIYguy]

Bought and installed a Crimson Trace Green on the M&P40. Took it to the range and did the usual sighting. Several rounds group, adjust laser, repeat, repeat. Once the laser was zeroed in, light up the bulls eye and put a hole in it. Repeat. Same buddy I had check the sights did the bench rest and putting open sights on the bull looked at where the laser was hitting. About 4" left, two inches down. No bad finger pulls just sights comparison, sights are off.
Send it back to S&W and wait about ten weeks or what?

 

[iouri]

No offense - I don't think there's anything wrong with sight. Often low and left (like 7-8 o'clock) is the result of shooter "pulling" the trigger. I don't know if you checked this chart yet

 

[Pisgah]

Down and left -- usually a matter of a shooter not familiar with the trigger or how to properly use 3-dot sights.

First, empty the gun, then aim at a small target. Grasp the pistol as you normally would, aim at your target, pull the trigger while focusing ONLY on the front sight. A dollar to a donut, it'll move low/left. Work on grip and trigger-finger positioning until that stops.

Then, go to the range. Load the gun, aim by lining up the front and rear normally, but instead of using the top of the sights as your index put the front dot right where you want the bullet to go. Yes, this means "covering up" the target with the sights. Bet you another dollar it'll hit dead center.

 

[Cackmandu]

Seems like you've done your due diligents to me! I'm having the same problem with my Shield 9 and thinking about having a gunsmith check it out! Very annoying when you're on target with other guns, but the new one just doesn't seem right!

 

[Muss Muggins]

I think we have to trust the part where the experienced friend shot it from a pistol bench rest . . .

 

[TacticalReload]

I think we have to trust the part where the experienced friend shot it from a pistol bench rest . . .

Yeah, but "It's your fault, not the gun's" is the mantra of brand-specific internet gun forums.

My VTAC9 shot so far left when I got it that it was off the paper at 20 yards. I noticed the front sight wasn't even close to centered on the slide. After drifting, it moved the shots where they were supposed to be going. I've heard many cases of M&P sights that were off center... it's what I would suggest looking at first.

 

[scooter123]

Do a search on Google for Low and Left and what you will find is this is typical for right handed shooters who need more practice. I've been fighting a tendency to "snatch" the trigger and "push flinch" since 1974 so I am quite expert in the "Low and Left" syndrome. The solution for me has been quite consistent for about 42 years now. That is to spend more time practicing and concentrating on achieving a complete state of relaxation an the instant the trigger releases. I've done this so much I''ve thought about writing a book titled Zen and the Art of Handgun Shooting.

My point is that everyone who has spent a fair bit of time shooting a handgun will have had to deal with the "Low and Left" (or "Low and Right" for a southpaw) at some point and many of us have to deal with it anytime we aren't doing regular continual practice. People are biologically programed to Flinch when they feel a sharp blow and loud noise, it's called the Startle Reflex. So, in fact NOT flinching when you fire a gun could be considered Unnatural. It takes training and practice to suppress that reflex and the more powerful the caliber the stronger the urge to flinch gets.

BTW, Low and Left is specifically a result of two separate shooting defects. The Low aspect is the result of a Push Flinch and I've actually seen shooters push so hard the Point of Impact was 5 feet in front of their feet. The Left aspect is a result of "snatching" the trigger and actually an Anticipation Reflex because you are about to initiate a very loud noise. Spend some time using a very slow trigger squeeze and you'll likely find that you feel an urge coming on to snatch at the trigger at some point and sometimes it can be near impossible to resist that urge.

Point is, you will get a lot of responses telling you that you are the problem, not the sights on your pistol. I will also note that you didn't state the distance at which you were shooting. If it was 25 yards then 4 inches left is well within reason as a sighting error. If it was only 25 feet the sights would have to be so obviously off center in the slide that you would have seen it as soon as you unpacked your pistol. Because at 25 feet you have to move the sights a lot to correct for a 4 inch error in POI. As for shooting low, at 25 yards 2 inches low could be corrected by going from ammunition using a 165 grain bullets to a load that features a 180 grain bullet. Because as odd as it seems heavier bullets actually raise the Point of Impact compared to a lighter bullet. (search for Bore Transit Recoil for an explanation of this). However at only 25 feet the change in the POI for going from a 165 grain bullet to a 180 grain bullet will be only in the range of 7/10 inch, a deviation normally hidden by group size.

 

[DIYguy]

 

[Muss Muggins]

Once again, I guess you missed the "My buddy shot it from a pistol bench rest . . ." Sort of negates the flinch and push . . .

Do a search on Google for Low and Left and what you will find is this is typical for right handed shooters who need more practice. I've been fighting a tendency to "snatch" the trigger and "push flinch" since 1974 so I am quite expert in the "Low and Left" syndrome. The solution for me has been quite consistent for about 42 years now. That is to spend more time practicing and concentrating on achieving a complete state of relaxation an the instant the trigger releases. I've done this so much I''ve thought about writing a book titled Zen and the Art of Handgun Shooting.

My point is that everyone who has spent a fair bit of time shooting a handgun will have had to deal with the "Low and Left" (or "Low and Right" for a southpaw) at some point and many of us have to deal with it anytime we aren't doing regular continual practice. People are biologically programed to Flinch when they feel a sharp blow and loud noise, it's called the Startle Reflex. So, in fact NOT flinching when you fire a gun could be considered Unnatural. It takes training and practice to suppress that reflex and the more powerful the caliber the stronger the urge to flinch gets.

BTW, Low and Left is specifically a result of two separate shooting defects. The Low aspect is the result of a Push Flinch and I've actually seen shooters push so hard the Point of Impact was 5 feet in front of their feet. The Left aspect is a result of "snatching" the trigger and actually an Anticipation Reflex because you are about to initiate a very loud noise. Spend some time using a very slow trigger squeeze and you'll likely find that you feel an urge coming on to snatch at the trigger at some point and sometimes it can be near impossible to resist that urge.

Point is, you will get a lot of responses telling you that you are the problem, not the sights on your pistol. I will also note that you didn't state the distance at which you were shooting. If it was 25 yards then 4 inches left is well within reason as a sighting error. If it was only 25 feet the sights would have to be so obviously off center in the slide that you would have seen it as soon as you unpacked your pistol. Because at 25 feet you have to move the sights a lot to correct for a 4 inch error in POI. As for shooting low, at 25 yards 2 inches low could be corrected by going from ammunition using a 165 grain bullets to a load that features a 180 grain bullet. Because as odd as it seems heavier bullets actually raise the Point of Impact compared to a lighter bullet. (search for Bore Transit Recoil for an explanation of this). However at only 25 feet the change in the POI for going from a 165 grain bullet to a 180 grain bullet will be only in the range of 7/10 inch, a deviation normally hidden by group size.

 

[kmanick]

I do the same thing with my FS .40 but low right (I'm left handed)
I just came back from the range. I shot 100 rounds with my shield 9 and 50 with my FS .40.
I shoot so much better with my shield it's not even funny. I still pull to the right a little bit but
I don't shoot low and I can bullseye 30% of shots. I shot 115 and 124 gr today both pretty similar ,
maybe a little better with the 124.
With The .40 I used 180, I think I may shoot better with 165, I will try that tomorrow weather permitting.

We have a gong(like Hickock45) at my range 40 yards out,
today with the shield? 4 or 8. The .40? zero for 10. Since I tend to pull right a little with
the shield as well I know it's me.
but for some reason I can shoot the shield much more accurately.

 

[TacticalReload]

I do the same thing with my FS .40 but low right (I'm left handed)
I just came back from the range. I shot 100 rounds with my shield 9 and 50 with my FS .40.
I shoot so much better with my shield it's not even funny. I still pull to the right a little bit but
I don't shoot low and I can bullseye 30% of shots. I shot 115 and 124 gr today both pretty similar ,
maybe a little better with the 124.
With The .40 I used 180, I think I may shoot better with 165, I will try that tomorrow weather permitting.

We have a gong(like Hickock45) at my range 40 yards out,
today with the shield? 4 or 8. The .40? zero for 10. Since I tend to pull right a little with
the shield as well I know it's me.
but for some reason I can shoot the shield much more accurately.

There is a chance that your full sized gun isn't up to snuff accuracy-wise. The only way to know for sure if it's you or the gun is to bench rest it at distance... slow fire from bags with the most accurate ammo you have.

 

[DIYguy]

Cr@p....
Just did a long *** post after trying to upload a photo and nether came through.
Not going to retype the whole thing but boiled down version is....last night shot my M&P9 and the M&P40, have a Crimson Trace green on both. I can do a 3" group at 25' on center using the laser. Using open sights M&P40 is substantially low and left. Laser POI show the same thing. No finger pulls, just light it up and compare relative POI.
I shoot weekly, have multiple manufactures and I LOVE the feel of my M&Ps in my hand.
Other than just using the laser do I....
Send the gun back to S&W get the "gun is fine, shooter sucks" treatment and wait ten weeks for the gun to come back.
Spend the money on other sights (have Dawson Precision on the M&P22)
Toss the gun in the back of the safe, write off $900 and shoot Glock?

 

[TacticalReload]

Are you saying that the laser is centered so your shots hit POA/POI but the sights are not regulated properly so the shots go somewhere else?

If that's the case, you need someone to adjust your sights or you can try to do it yourself. Without a sight pusher, it becomes a little more difficult and there is substantial chance of scratching your slide or sights. Search here on how to do it with nylon or brass punches or even blocks of wood or plastic.

If you send it back to S&W saying that the sights need to be adjusted, they may or may not fix it for you to your satisfaction. The upside is that it will probably only take 3 or 4 weeks instead of 10. ;-)

Is that 3" group at 25' (FEET, correct?) from a rested position? With a laser and a bench rest, it should group better than that at a little over 8 yards, IMO. But that's besides the point. If you're shooting off-hand, then that's understandable.

If other people shoot your open sights and the shots are centered for them, then it just might be something about these sights that don't work for you. That would be the only reason I would swap to aftermarket sights on the same gun.

More importantly... why did you spend $900 on an M&P40? Is that with the Crimson Trace (I hope!)?

 

[OKFC05]

Bought and installed a Crimson Trace Green on the M&P40. Took it to the range and did the usual sighting. ...... open sights on the bull looked at where the laser was hitting. About 4" left, two inches down. No bad finger pulls just sights comparison, sights are off.
Send it back to S&W and wait about ten weeks or what?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't send it back, because I have access to a sight pusher and can adjust fixed sights in windage to match the laser, if that's what you want. There must be somebody with a sight pushed in your part of the world. I have adjusted fixed windage on many different brands of handguns, including Glocks, and it is no big deal, certainly not a major crisis.

As to adjusting fixed sights in elevation, you're SOL, and we're back to ammo choice. I have a Brn HiPo .40 with fixed sights that shoots to POA at 15yd with 165gr major power but shoots high with 180gr, so it gets 165gr ammo.
My only other alternative, if you're dedicated to your present ammo, is to send the gun to Dawson Precision and they will make you a new front sight (might as well get FO while you're at it) to move your POI up 2 inches, if you're sure you want the gun sighted at 8 yards; that's a little close for my tastes.
I expect my pistols to shoot a bit low until about 15yds where the line of sight and trajectory first cross. Many people sight in for 25 yds, which is probably somewhere close to what you have now.

 

[kmanick]

No it's definitely me. I've had both triggers done (the MA compliant triggers are horrid). I had the .40 done first and I actually used to shoot the .40 much more accurately than I do now. I've had a friend who is a marks man shoot it too and he bullseyes with it (FS .40 is his carry gun , he's LE) Once I had the trigger done on the shield(which was a better trigger to begin with), the .40 basically became my HD gun and sits in the safe all the time. I've only recently started shooting it again. I shoot the shield a lot, I guess I have just become acclimated to shooting a smaller gun.
The FS feels front heavy to me compared to the Shield.
I've got about 700 rounds of .40, I'm going to spend some time
with it over the next 2 weeks, if I can't get it worked out I will probably just trade it in for another 9, Probably the sig P320C
or get an M&P 9C or a glock 19

There is a chance that your full sized gun isn't up to snuff accuracy-wise. The only way to know for sure if it's you or the gun is to bench rest it at distance... slow fire from bags with the most accurate ammo you have.

 

[DIYguy]

Tactical:
Thank you good stuff!
Correct regarding POA/POI. With my buddy had him put open sights on target and compare laser dot location which was low and left. Laser is zeroed in at 25' (Indoor range)

I use 17 x 11 cardstock AR sighting targets for indoor range use as they fit the hangers. 3" groups means nothing outside of the "8". Looking at my target, fifteen rounds, eleven inside the "9" four in the "8" with my M&P9 at 25'. Short but nice distance to check accuracy before going long.

$530 at Gander Mountain for the M&P40 + tax, $310 for the CT separate from Crimson Trace. Couldn't find one local. Almost $900

Ammo question. I checked my casings and looks like the rounds I've been shooting while testing are 180gr Blaser Brass. Any thoughts on Blaser Brass? Could be moot, all out of Blaser, have 500 rounds of Remington white box in the safe left. Haven't compared different mfg yet. Another 100+ of Remington, all 180gr.

I tried to measure the location of the rear sights for center using my digital calipers but tough to get a good solid reading, look to be center though.

Elevation question. Could the sights for the 40 be factory set for elevation at 25 yards? Drawing my little diagrams of bullet path, sight line looks like POI would be low at 25' if zeroed for 25 yards???

 

[scooter123]

I just did a layout in Autocad of the amount of correction required for a 4 inch correction at only 25 feet. The amount of correction required is 0.080 inch for a pistol with a 6 inch sight radius.

Look at the top of your slide. Does either your front or rear sight appear to be over 1/16 inch off center? If this is the case take your pistol back to where you purchased it and ask them to have their gunsmith drift the sight that is off center back to the center of the slide.

BTW, if you actually paid 900 dollars for an M&P 40 it must be gold plated. Because in my neck of the woods an M&P 40 is a 550.00 dollar pistol if it's not on sale.

 

[TacticalReload]

scooter... he said that price includes the laser.

I'm not sure I would take a pistol back to Gander Mtn to have anyone do anything to it any sooner than I would take a tv back to Walmart to get them to fix it.

Sights don't necessarily have to be off center to be shooting left or right, but that usually are. It's possible, though, that a gun is naturally shooting in that direction. I had a Glock that would shoot left (I know, I know... the infamous "Glocks shoot left" thing... I ASSURE you that it actually was shooting left when the sights were centered). It happens.

The rear sight doesn't have a lot of room to move in the dovetail without starting to overhang. That also means it should be visually obvious if the rear sight isn't centered. The front sight is another story, however. Like I mentioned, I had one that was so far off to one side that the gun was off the paper at 20 yards. Drifting front sights is kind of delicate work depending on how tight there are. I've snapped a few off in my time (even with a sight pusher). Fortunately, since these were VTAC sights, my experience with drifting the front on my gun went smoothly. I used a pusher that I borrowed from my local range / gun shop... they could have charged me since I didn't buy the gun from them, but they aren't d-bags so they just let me do my thing. (If anyone shops for guns in Jacksonville, FL... Gun Gallery is a good group of folks. MUCH better than Shooters, IMO, in price and attitude.)

As for ammo, 15 to 20 years ago, people viewed Blazer as the "cheap stuff" (but it was the aluminum case back then). Now, anything that is not steel-cased, bi-metal jacketed eastern bloc / russian ammo is viewed as acceptable by most. I think there is nothing wrong with Blazer Brass ammo as compared to Winchester white box or American Eagle or UMC or whatever. It might not be the most accurate in your gun, but it's unlikely to be much off from other stuff in most pistols.

One thing I would suggest is that you try a couple weights / brands of ammo to see if they group differently (size and/or location). Sometimes certain bullets group in different places on the target. I'm not sure of the physics of it, though.

As far as elevation, this is a tough one with fixed sights. Typically, you have to change the height of the sights to adjust for elevation. An easier option would be to try different bullet weights. However, in general, heavier bullets tend to shoot higher... if you're already at 180 gr and it's shooting low, I'm not sure what else you can do with that.

As an academic exercise, as far as being zeroed at 25 yards... yes it will typically shoot low at 25 feet. However, it will never shoot LOWER than the sight offset (the difference between the bore axis and the sight axis). On a pistol, we are talking a pretty small difference over a relatively short distance, so I wouldn't worry too much about that being the cause of what you're seeing. Think of it this way, for a gun to be 2" at 25' and then dead on at 25 yards, the bullet would have to exit the bore MORE than 2" under the sights... either that or it would have to dip down and then go back up before coming back down again. Unless you're reviewing Zapruder film, that isn't going to occur.

Best suggestion is either compensate how you're holding, file down the front sight, or get new sights. Dawson Precision would be the place to go for that purpose, IMO. As scooter mentioned, the windage can be fixed by drifting the sights.

Your other options would be to send it back to S&W and hope they get it right the second time, which is no guarantee. Or, if it just annoys to you the point where you want to punt, then sell the gun and the laser (assuming you can't return the laser) and get something else. The last option would be the costliest and most rash, but I've been known to do such things in the past when I simply don't want to deal with something.

Sorry I got so long winded with this one... I was just trying to be thorough in my answer.

 

[Raiderse]

Got an M&P9 Pro 5" last week. Same issue you had but my sights were off 2" left and an inch low at 10 yds. Shot about 70 rounds. Had gunsmith and expert shooter at shooting range shoot and check it with me. the front sight was not centered from factory and he said to send it back to S&W because it may be something else. He said he would not attempt to move the front sight in case he marked the slide. Sent Pistol back to S&W wednesday it was very hard to do with a brand new firearm. Hopefully I won't be without it for two months. Very disappointing. S&W must be lacking on Quality control. Not very happy with pistol fit and finish either. S&W said it was manufactured in March or 2016.
Every other pistol I have CZ, Beretta, Walther etc. Sights were right on from factory. IT would be less expensive for them to set and test fire rather than take them back to be redone. Depending on how efficiently and effectively they handle this will determine if I will ever buy another S&W again. I was going to just go ahead and get an M&P 4.25" for a Duty Pistol so they would be the same. but now I will wait to see what they do . Might go for a PPQ 4" to match my 5"