M1A vs M&P 10

[MistWolf]

Dave,
I don't doubt your experiences with the M14, however it's odd that your comparison of the two rifles ignores the maintenance the M14 needs to stay running reliably. In fact, it's the lack of experienced armorers and parts that makes it difficult to keep M14s running out on the battlefield today that has many vets hating it. Many refuse to carry them afield, call for it to be replaced and much prefer the AR family of weapons.

You mentioned that you didn't want a rifle needing oiling. Needing oil is no different than needing grease and oiling an AR is simpler than greasing an M14. From your description, it makes it sound like you don't know how to take care of an AR and don't really want to know. I think you're exaggerating a bit- sometimes I do when I spout my dislike for Russian weapons

However, I think you'd be better served describing what types of malfunctions your having and trying to trouble shoot them. I see you've got Magpul mags. Good start. Next thing I'd do is lube the BCG, including through the vent holes. Then load a single round in the mag and see if it will lock back when fired. If it doesn't, it's short stroking which means the ammo is weak or the gas system has a leak or is obstructed somewhere, or the gas port is small.

What ammo are you using? I bought some CAVIM surplus which was too weak to cycle my M&P-10, which is strange because the same ammo worked fine when I shot it last summer. However, commercial hunting ammo worked fine. I've also used German ball with no troubles at all

 

[Aldoradave]

Maybe I was not clear enough. I did say the" M&P 10 may end up being my favorite". But I am really pissed off with the factory shipping crappy magazines, needs tuning, and loads of cleaning in order to function at all. My first one would not fire even one round at all so I sent it back to S&W. Their report was that they replaced the firing pin and charging handle. How is that for QC!

By the time I got it back I had studied up on the need to keep the M&P 10 very wet with oil and went through an on line instruction. Worked my *** off cleaning and I did have a Magpul 20LR and that seemed to help, as long as I was using American Eagle ammo.

In this same time frame I took delivery of a standard M1A from SA and out of the box it flawlessly fired Old Spanish surplus and old GI surplus left to me by my father. That holds true for my old Federal Ordinance M14 and M1A Scout as well

The cleaned and oiled M&P10 throws (FTL/FTE) up frequently with either of those even with the Magpul mags.

With the second M&P 10 I have the same issues but I can't get the Nikon 308 scope on target! Maybe a bent rail, maybe a bent barrel I plan on having a real gunsmith check that out when I get around to it.

HOwever, to reiterate my main bitch is with S&W for shipping out stuff that was obviously flawed from the get go. Maybe with time they will get it right but with a sullied reputation.

Dave Dillehay

PS several dabs of Lubriplate, little oil, and some Hoppe's #9 always took care of my M14 in Vietnam. Kept the same one for over twelve months in pretty ugly conditions firing plenty USGI FMJ rounds. I am amazed to hear anyone claim that they are unreliable. I will own up to them being heavy though.

 

[flintsghost]

Very best, and lightest mount for an M1A is the Bassett. He can be found on his own website. I did a lot of the R&D for Bill's picatinny rail mount and it's OK but I prefer his old standard. I used the low with 20moa graded into the mount during manufacture. I found it does go on and off and goes back to zero within a 1/2 MOA. It's light and easy to use. While Bill recommend using weaver rings, I prefer the medium 30mm Leupold Mark IV aluminum variety. It's light than any other mount. It's also very popular. Though ARMS and others have their proponents, Bassett's mounts are very popular and well thought of on the M14 forum.

 

[Aldoradave]

BTW, who says the grunts in Afgan hate them? Being a Marine (sickness that never stops) I have heard no such thing. Good lord, the M14 is so simple, even Marines can learn how to work them. Isn't it best to hit a rag head at 500 or 1000 yds than wait until their AKs are in range?. And if I could keep mine working in the **** of Vietnam why could they not do so in that dry climate.

That just does not make sense to me.

Dave Dillehay USMC

 

[MistWolf]

I was never in harm's way, only reporting what some of the guys who have been over there are saying. Not all who have used the M14 hated it, but there are more than a few. Not talking about "I heard of a guy who heard of a guy" but first hand accounts from those who used them personally in combat. I also know what many Vietnam vets say about the M14- many talk about how they hated giving it for the new M16.

One major difference between the two experiences is trained armorers and parts availability. Back in the day, the military had trained armorers and a good supply of GI parts to keep the M14 up and running. Today, they do not. Another is lack of good training with the M14, including how to perform daily PM.

As for weight, I don't think my M14 is any heavier than the M&P-10 but I'd have to put it on a scale to verify that.

Failure to Eject/Failure to Feed sounds like it's short stroking. That's weak ammo and/or a gas leak or obstruction in the gas system. My M&P-10 runs fine on German surplus ammo but choked on CAVIM. With the CAVIM, I suspect that batch is underpowered. I'd be very disappointed if my M&P-10 came with the problems you're describing, especially when it's two for two!

If interested, there are a couple of real good M14 forums. Maybe you already have them-
M14 Forum - M14 Forum for M14 M1A Rifles
Team M14 Forum

 

[Elmer]

Using PMAGs and lubing the gun as I do any other AR, I've run LC XM80, Federal AE308, Gold Medal Match 168 grain, Speer Gold Dot 150 and 168's, and MK 319 through my MP10 so far, all with no malfunctions.

AR's like to be wet, especially when new or when dirty. Almost every time I've been called on to diagnose a feed malfunctioning, quality AR, shooting quality ammunition, it's been due to lack of lubrication, or bad mags.

 

[prairie]

...As for weight, I don't think my M14 is any heavier than the M&P-10 but I'd have to put it on a scale to verify that....

The following weights are taken from the listed websites

S&W M&P10 #811311
7.71 lbs / 7 lbs 11.4 Oz. -- 40.9” Extended/ 37.6” Collapsed
7.90 lbs / 7 lbs 14.4 Oz. with Troy Folding Battle Sights
Ours ways almost exactly that on a postage scale. But open sights need to be added to the weight as they are already included in the M1A weight. Troy Folding Battle Sights are 3 oz. / .1875 lbs on my postage scale.
Product: Model M&P10 .308 WIN/ 7.62x51

S&W M&P10 MagPul #811314
8.2 lbs./ 8 lbs. 3.2 oz. w/sights -- 41” Extended/ 37.75” Collapsed
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57913_757910_757787_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Springfield Armory Standard M1A #MA9012
9.3 lbs / 9 lbs. 4.8 Oz. -- 44.33"
Springfield Armory

The lighter weight of the S&W M&P10, when compared to other makes was a huge selling point for me.
The S&W version is typically at least 1 pound, and many times 2 pounds lighter, than other brands AR10 versions. For a bench gun that may be OK, but for a practical carry/hunting gun that is to much for most people.
As much as I like the Garand and M1A, I would grab the M&P10 if I had to carry it all day.

 

[MistWolf]

The actual weight of my M&P-10, empty, configured with Magpul furniture and a sling is 8 lbs, 10 oz. A loaded 20 round mag is about 1 lbs, 8 oz and brings total weight up to 10 lbs, 2 oz

With a Nightforce 2.5-10x32, it weighs 10 lbs, 5 oz empty, 11 lbs, 14 oz loaded

In comparison, this StG-58 weighs 9 lbs, 9 oz empty, no sling

and this Para (lower rifle) weighs 9 lbs, 1 oz, empty, no sling

The M14 has a GI fiberglass stock and a standard profile barrel. It feels no heavier than the M&P-10, but that's also with no sling and no optic. I'd have to weigh the M14 to be certain, however

 

[big&slow]

When I was lookin for a semi .308, I looked into an m1a. The weight really wasn't an issue, but a scoped m1a would certainly be a beast. but the challenges of mounting optics was a significant issue.

Easy to mount optics on an M-14/M1A
Bassett machine mount. Look it up. On and off in 30 seconds and holds POI every time.

 

[big&slow]

Very best, and lightest mount for an M1A is the Bassett. He can be found on his own website. I did a lot of the R&D for Bill's picatinny rail mount and it's OK but I prefer his old standard. I used the low with 20moa graded into the mount during manufacture. I found it does go on and off and goes back to zero within a 1/2 MOA. It's light and easy to use. While Bill recommend using weaver rings, I prefer the medium 30mm Leupold Mark IV aluminum variety. It's light than any other mount. It's also very popular. Though ARMS and others have their proponents, Bassett's mounts are very popular and well thought of on the M14 forum.

What he said. Bassett mounts rule on an M1A.

 

[MistWolf]

The problem with optics on an M14 is getting a good cheekweld

 

[prairie]

I edited and added info to my post #67.
Added specs on the MagPul version, which MistWolf referred to in his post.
Also added weight of sights to the standard M&P10 weight for a fair comparison, as that is already included in the M1A and MagPul M&P10 specs.

 

[Aldoradave]

When you put a "real" scope mount on the M1A standard it has to be Steel, Gen4. That makes it real heavy and bluntly, off center balanced. I used a Nikon 308 Scope But I took the whole thing off and I believe at 500 yards it is about the same for me with iron sites. I know that sounds crazy, but the M14 iron sites just seem to fit my old eyes. Plus war ain't competition with precision scopes, lead slides etc, and I know with 8 clicks of elevation almost any M14 I pick up will be pretty darn close for 100 to 500 yards. The three I have were that way, just as I remembered from training in 1963.

If I really wanted to shoot 1000 yards with Precision (competition ain't war) I'd go with an EBR variant which is the real deal. Tell you what, I'm going to find a good gunsmith here in South Texas, get the M&Ps "tuned", get better instruction and see if I can do better. Does anyone have a contact with a good M&P mechanic in the south Houston or Galveston area? If so, please let me know as my LGS is clueless.

Dave Dillehay
Semper Fi

 

[MistWolf]

I dunno about any good AR guys in Tejas, but I'll ask my brother if he does

 

[CVF]

Yeah, if I could do it all over again I'd have waited for a Scout to go along with my Loaded instead of picking up the M&P10. I had been looking for awhile and had only found one Scout the whole time and someone had a deposit on it already. I headed out to another shop and there was three M&P10s that had just come in a few hours earlier. Wanting to keep continuity between rifles(ammo and mags) I walked out empty handed.

Fast forward a week and a half I go back and only one remained. The entire time I had been nagging dealers over the phone looking for a Scout and finding no timeline when one would be expected in. So that day I bit the proverbial bullet and walked out with the last M&P10 they had.

Now maybe it's the BUIS(I'm guessing it's definitely more than a maybe), but at the 50yrd mark I'm lucky if I can get a 2-3" grouping benched with the M&P10, and that's using FGMM 168gr.. Hell, even my Remington 597 shoots circles around that with whatever 22LR I feed it.

As for maintenance I'm not sure why MistWolf is having concerns but I only really clean my Loaded after say 500-600 rounds. Sure, after a day at the range I'll shoot some Ballistol down the barrel and one pull with a BoreSnake and I'm done. I had well over a thousand rounds through her before I even thought of cleaning the piston, and then went for another few trips to the range before I finally cleaned it. She was so dirty she wouldn't even pass the tilt test.

As for the M&P10, she comes apart after every outing down to the cotter pin. The only time I oiled her was when I first got her, after she pissed most of it out into the case I started using grease on the BCG and Ballistol in the vent holes/barrel. I'd never put the level of abuse to the M&P10 as I do the M1A, I recall just how finicky the AR platform can be if it isn't kept fairly pristine(this general observation is from my Army days with the M16).

Plus, if it ever came down to the nitty gritty, I'd rather deliver a buttstroke to the head or groin with the extra weight of the M1A.

JMO.

 

[MistWolf]

It's not concern I'm voicing, merely pointing out that if a shooter thinks an AR is too much maintenance, they'd better not take up with an M14. An AR merely needs to have it's BCG oiled up to keep running and their piston rings checked for wear. An M14 has specific places that need to be greased and a roller bearing that needs to be packed occasionally. M14s (and Garands) can be hard on their bedding and the tension on the trigger group can loosen up over time which will open up groups. M14s are rugged, durable and reliable, but they need care specific to the rifle to keep running, especially one that sees a lot of shooting. That's not a bad thing, it just is

Unfortunately, the Army hasn't caught on to how an AR needs to be maintained. Many are still pushing a "run it dry" policy when it needs to be well lubed. Veterans who ran it dry to keep the oil from attracting dirt & fouling over in the middle east found their ARs to be unreliable. Those who report they kept well lubed found the AR to be very reliable. Another trouble spot is mags. Use poorly made mags or worn out mags and a self loading rifle will choke. Want to know how long an AR will run without cleaning? Look up "Filthy 14".

One thing about ARs, shooters find they need a certain shooting technique to wring the best precision from them. ARs are inherently accurate and it's just about the most accurate of the self loading rifles. There is a reason ARs dominate Service Rifle matches. Also, the M&P-10 does not have a free float barrel and setting the forearm on a rest changes the POI. ARs are sensitive to pressure placed on the barrel.

The M&P-10 hasn't been around long enough or sent enough rounds down range to prove itself. But it is an AR type rifle and if executed correctly, should prove itself rugged and reliable. There are certain things S&W could have done better, such as using the rifle length gas system with the 18 inch barrel instead of the middy. Only time will tell.

I love the M14 and the M&P-10 won't be replacing it, but so far, I also like the big Smith

 

[LlindeX]

I love this thread but I won't get into the debate over the guns except to state that General Patton would have changed what he said about the MI Garand had he ever had the chance to operate an M-14 because I do believe it is the greatest battle rifle ever made. However, one cannot argue with the success of the AR or AK platforms either.

What I want to note is this:



In America, I believe that could be incorrect advice and you might be wise to not heed it. The 4 calibers of ammunition you are likely to be able to locate easily if, as we used to say in the military, "the balloon goes up", are 9mm Parabellum and .45 ACP for handguns and 5.56 NATO/.223 Remington and .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO for rifles. The military and police armories will mostly have those calibers. 7.62 x 39 is not that common in American storage except in the hands of the citizens who enjoy the AK platform and that caliber. Just food for thought (and do NOT ever forget to have a .22 LR available, too!).

***GRJ***

In the Ancient Past, I would have agreed with you about 22LR being one of the best calibers to have available in a do-or-die situation. However, considering the last time I saw a box of 22lr ammo on the shelf, I now think I'm gonna' leave home without my trusty Ruger 10/22 in hand. In today's screwed-up market, your more likely to find a box of 30-378 Weatherby ammo on a retailer's shelf than to be lucky enough to find 22lr fodder.

 

[CVF]

It's not concern I'm voicing, merely pointing out that if a shooter thinks an AR is too much maintenance, they'd better not take up with an M14. An AR merely needs to have it's BCG oiled up to keep running and their piston rings checked for wear. An M14 has specific places that need to be greased and a roller bearing that needs to be packed occasionally. M14s (and Garands) can be hard on their bedding and the tension on the trigger group can loosen up over time which will open up groups. M14s are rugged, durable and reliable, but they need care specific to the rifle to keep running, especially one that sees a lot of shooting. That's not a bad thing, it just is

Unfortunately, the Army hasn't caught on to how an AR needs to be maintained. Many are still pushing a "run it dry" policy when it needs to be well lubed. Veterans who ran it dry to keep the oil from attracting dirt & fouling over in the middle east found their ARs to be unreliable. Those who report they kept well lubed found the AR to be very reliable. Another trouble spot is mags. Use poorly made mags or worn out mags and a self loading rifle will choke. Want to know how long an AR will run without cleaning? Look up "Filthy 14".

One thing about ARs, shooters find they need a certain shooting technique to wring the best precision from them. ARs are inherently accurate and it's just about the most accurate of the self loading rifles. There is a reason ARs dominate Service Rifle matches. Also, the M&P-10 does not have a free float barrel and setting the forearm on a rest changes the POI. ARs are sensitive to pressure placed on the barrel.

The M&P-10 hasn't been around long enough or sent enough rounds down range to prove itself. But it is an AR type rifle and if executed correctly, should prove itself rugged and reliable. There are certain things S&W could have done better, such as using the rifle length gas system with the 18 inch barrel instead of the middy. Only time will tell.

I love the M14 and the M&P-10 won't be replacing it, but so far, I also like the big Smith

Sorry MW, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I feel the AR platform is so much more in need of maintanence than the M1A to run properly. After easily a few thousand rounds I've yet to pull either the op rod to lube the roller or the bolt to break it down for a cleaning. Cleaning my M1A is so simple and fast it's silly. Pull the trigger group out, drop out the action, and disengage op rod guide(optional, just makes things easier). Spray some solvent down the barrel and in receiver, bore snake the barrel and wipe out the receiver, reapply some grease, put it all together and done. Literally about 5-6 minutes of work, and I don't even do all that after every range visit(usually every senond or third).

The AR by comparison is much more needy of a complete tear down even after a few hundred rounds. Of course one may possibly stretch that out a little by using cleaner ammo but it's been my experience folks will drop a silly amount of money for an AR and then shoot the cheapest ammo they can find.

As for the AR dominating the service competitions I believe there's a few reasons for that, mostly attributed to costs. Firstly, the initial cost of the rifle can be a few to several hundred dollars cheaper with an AR. Secondly, it's far cheaper to train with and feed an AR(.223) than it is a M1A or Garand. What I also believe to be a huge contributing factor is the commonality of the platform. We've got at least two to three generations of kids who have little to no idea what a Garand or M14 is aside from a few appearences in current video games(for the M14 at least). Conversely show a picture to a kid these days of a M16/M4 and they know exactly what it is, mainly due to video games but a few movies also. I'm 42 and the only reason I ever had a clue to what a M14 or Garand was is because I was fortunate enough at the age of 15 to go to a public funshoot at a local range one day. Had I not shot the M14 that day I most likely would have never devolped an affinity towards the platform or the Garand(which I still need to get).

 

[MistWolf]

An M14 isn't very difficult to maintain but it does require more attention than an AR does. If you're not greasing the roller you're risking having it seize up and break off. You have to keep and eye on the pressure needed to install the trigger group. If it gets too loose the rifle will need to be re-bedded. Carbon builds up at the gas block & piston and should be occasionally cleaned out. The rifle has to be carefully lubed to prevent oil from causing the fibers of the wood stocks from breaking down. Talk to the experts over on the Team M14 website about the proper way to keep an M14 running.

ARs dominated Service Rifle matches back n the day when 15 cents per round for surplus ammo was expensive even for 7.62x51 or 30-06. Service Rifle match shooters use what wins not what's cheap. If it was just about what was cheap then $167 Garands shooting surplus '06 ammo at a nickle a pop would have been the number one choice of the time.

Familiarity of the AR with service members is a plus but that's not why it's so popular for match shooting. The M14 dominated competition until the A2 with it's improved sights and tighter twist came on the scene although the M16 had long since replaced the M14 on the battle field. That's because until the M16A2 came along it was the M14 that was winning matches and the 03-A3 was no longer legal for Service Rifle.

The M14 and the Garand aren't fragile rifles by a long shot but they are less tolerant of long term neglect than the AR is. The claims that the AR requires intensive maintenance to keep running are false

PS- Real M14 & Garand shooters know rifles are rifles not platforms

 

[CVF]

An M14 isn't very difficult to maintain but it does require more attention than an AR does. If you're not greasing the roller you're risking having it seize up and break off. You have to keep and eye on the pressure needed to install the trigger group. If it gets too loose the rifle will need to be re-bedded. Carbon builds up at the gas block & piston and should be occasionally cleaned out. The rifle has to be carefully lubed to prevent oil from causing the fibers of the wood stocks from breaking down. Talk to the experts over on the Team M14 website about the proper way to keep an M14 running.

ARs dominated Service Rifle matches back n the day when 15 cents per round for surplus ammo was expensive even for 7.62x51 or 30-06. Service Rifle match shooters use what wins not what's cheap. If it was just about what was cheap then $167 Garands shooting surplus '06 ammo at a nickle a pop would have been the number one choice of the time.

Familiarity of the AR with service members is a plus but that's not why it's so popular for match shooting. The M14 dominated competition until the A2 with it's improved sights and tighter twist came on the scene although the M16 had long since replaced the M14 on the battle field. That's because until the M16A2 came along it was the M14 that was winning matches and the 03-A3 was no longer legal for Service Rifle.

The M14 and the Garand aren't fragile rifles by a long shot but they are less tolerant of long term neglect than the AR is. The claims that the AR requires intensive maintenance to keep running are false

PS- Real M14 & Garand shooters know rifles are rifles not platforms

Well MW you believe whatever you want to believe, IME I'm going to believe the M1A is a more easily maintained rifle.

As for the "platform" maybe you would've been more comfortable with the term "variant". I guess there are no real shooters on military dot com because they use the term "platform" also.

Calibers That Hunt - AR Hunting - Outdoor Guide - Military.com Entertainment

Rather than enter the .223 debate, this article will highlight some of the other hunting centerfire calibers that are now commonly available in the AR platform, many more than adequate for the biggest of game.

Or over at NSSF.

Modern Sporting Rifle Facts | NSSF

The modern sporting rifle, based on the AR-15 platform, is widely misunderstood.

Even something as simple as a Wiki search will bring up "platform".

AR-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some available calibers for the AR-15 platform are the .223 Remington/5.56x45mm, .45 ACP, 5.7x28mm, 6.5 mm Grendel, 6.8 mm Remington SPC,[16] .50 Beowulf, .50 BMG, and .458 SOCOM.[17]

Those are just the top three hits from Google, lots more to continue with(maybe you could inform them all of their mistake).

Sorry to say but real M14 shooters know exactly what the M14 is, versus far too many M1A shooters getting a chubby out of referring to their M1A as a M14. Stamp whatever you want to on the heel of the receiver, it's still an M1A.

P.S. Could you let us all in on where to get those magical AR BCGs that somehow don't get covered in carbon and don't need to be cleaned ever? Are they made out of Unicorn horns of do you find them at the end of the rainbow?