M41, failure to extract/eject

[DrakeOwens]

**This post has been edited!!**

I own an early Model 41(ser. 3800) with a 7 3/8" barrel with muzzle brake which I acquired essentially unfired at the end of 2015. It's always had it quirks with occasional failure to extract/eject rounds but I just wrote it off to the pistol's "personality". But this morning I decided to try an objective test with several different types of ammo and the results were rather shocking. I used four types of Federal ammo on a bench rest firing twenty rounds each and this is what happened.

1. Federal Gold Medal Target(1,080FPS). Almost every round had an ejection failure with the spent casing becoming trapped in the ejection port and blocking the next round. This was the first ammo tested and I thought I had broken my pistol.
2. Federal Gold Medal HV Match(1,200FPS). One failure to extract otherwise it performed flawlessly.
3. Federal Champion(1,240FPS). Every round experienced a failure to extract with the casing remaining in the breech though the pistol recocked each time.
4. Federal Automatch(1,200FPS) (my usual load). The first round in each clip failed to extract though the pistol recocked. After the first round in each magazine the ammo performed flawlessly. It was also the most accurate. I continued to use this ammo for the rest of the morning(200 rounds) with the same first shot from each magazine failure to extract problem(one exception).

I am no expert so what this all means I don't know. Certainly something must be amiss if certain standard brands of ammunition produce such a dramatic difference in performance. Why one type has huge ejection problems, the next round works fine, another round by the same manufacturer has such a huge extraction problem, and the last has extraction problems consistently with only the first round is a mystery to me. I enjoy this pistol enormously but I'd really like to get to the bottom of this problem. I would appreciate your help. Thanks.

**EDIT: The original post stated that three types of ammo were *standard* velocity while one was *high* velocity. This is incorrect. I have now included the velocity in FPS for each ammo. It turns out that the lowest and the highest velocity sampled gave the most problems! Because the ammo boxes are unclear on the subject of what constitutes *standard* and *high* velocity I'd appreciate if someone on the forums would provide an answer and suggest what ammo based on FPS is recommended. I have reviewed the manual and no recommendation is made in regards to ammo velocity.**

 

[Barrie]

I think I might know what the problem is with this gun. These older ones in particular are very fussy with what ammo they use so if you can get it switch over to CCI-- SV, or Blazer, Wolf. These are about the only 3 that I am aware of that will work really well in your gun.

 

[DrakeOwens]

I think I might know what the problem is with this gun. These older ones in particular are very fussy with what ammo they use so if you can get it switch over to CCI-- SV, or Blazer, Wolf. These are about the only 3 that I am aware of that will work really well in your gun.

Thanks for the quick reply Barrie. What I'd really like is for this pistol to be able to handle any standard velocity 40 grain bullet like it's supposed to. After all these years it seems that someone by now should have figured out a fix, a modified ejector, a different spring or something. I'm really struggling to understand why very similar ammo from the same company should behave so differently. Unfortunately, the ammo you suggest is almost always out of stock. At least my favorite ammo the Federal Automatch works pretty well, is the most accurate, is available and affordable. But I still want to try to find a fix. BTW I've heard from Thom and he's mailing me an order form. Thanks!

 

[leinster lad]

These are basically pretty simple machines, and operate correctly in a "sweet spot"
It is all about the balance between blow-back pressure, extractor grip, ejector timing, recoil spring strength / hammer spring strength.
Even the friction of the case in the chamber has an effect. Make sure the extractor gets a good grip on the rim of the case.

You just need to spend some quality quiet time with your M41 on a clean and well lit work bench.

I do not need to tell you the importance of doing this SAFELY.

Sometimes you do need to use LIVE AMMO.
It would be best if you can remove the firing pin from the breech block if you are going to do this.
Reduces the chance of accidental discharge to almost zero.
And always keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction, just to be sure.

Have a really good critical thnk about HOW the pistol works.
HOW does a spent casing get out of the pistol.?
WHAT are the mechanics that are involved ?
HOW does a fresh bullet get into the chamber.?
WHAT are the mechanics that are involved ?

Have a look at how all the various factors fit together to enable a spent cartridge to be extracted from the chamber and then ejected at the perfect time that allows that casing to get out of the ejection port without hindrance.

It is all about TIMING.

Have a look at how the next round is positioned in the magazine. Is it sitting a little too high and catching the ejecting case that is being extracted ?
Have you tried different magazines ?

There are so many variables that your exact cause can only be determined through a very thorough examination of YOUR pistol.

From a qualified engineers point of view, .22LR "blow back" pistols are a very simple machine, but to work properly, there are a lot of very complex systems in place !

Messing around with different ammo is not solving the problem, although you might be able to compensate for it to some degree.

Be patient, you will work it out, and when you do, you will get that M41 smile on your face !!!

 

[Tom S.]

One thing sticks out with your trial: SV had the failure rate, HV didn't. Perhaps the previous owner installed a heavier recoil spring so he could shoot HV ammo. You might try replacing the recoil spring with a stock spring (6 pounds if memory serves, but check to make sure). Also consider replacing the hammer spring with a stock spring. If the previous owner was getting light hits, he may replaced the hammer spring as well, which will also cause feed/extraction issues on SV ammo. I believe S&W and Wolfe both carry the springs.

 

[DrakeOwens]

One thing sticks out with your trial: SV had the failure rate, HV didn't. Perhaps the previous owner installed a heavier recoil spring so he could shoot HV ammo. You might try replacing the recoil spring with a stock spring (6 pounds if memory serves, but check to make sure). Also consider replacing the hammer spring with a stock spring. If the previous owner was getting light hits, he may replaced the hammer spring as well, which will also cause feed/extraction issues on SV ammo. I believe S&W and Wolfe both carry the springs.

The previous owner is my cousin who is now in assisted living but he assures me he never altered the pistol. I've been trying to research what constitutes standard velocity and high velocity. I need to say that I was incorrect in my comments about which ammos I tested were standard and which were high velocity. I have edited my original post to reflect this.

 

[armorer951]

My "mid70's" model 41 functions well with standard velocity ammo. After ordering a new OEM replacement recoil spring, I noticed the spring currently in the gun had been shortened....by at least an inch. Probably about 3 coils.
Not sure about the exact cause of your current issues, but like a couple of other members have mentioned, I'm also wondering if your current spring may be too strong for a steady diet of standard velocity ammo.

 

[DrakeOwens]

I don't think this problem should be addressed by trying to find a particular ammo that works better. The Model 41 manual only specifies long rifle ammo of good quality. It does not specify weight or velocity. A pistol that fails to perform within these stated boundaries is the source of the problem NOT the ammo. You don't go into a competition with a pistol that might jam. My goal is to correct whatever defect the pistol has. I also consider this a defect covered under warranty.

 

[SRT]

Model 41s tend to be somewhat picky about what they eat. That said, over the years I have fired thousands of rounds of CCI Mini Mag through my first year model 41, without a hiccup. If it your 41 won't digest Mini Mag, you have a problem with your pistol. Try some and I'll bet your problem disappears.

 

[DrakeOwens]

As this gun was shipped in 1958(by the serial number) and you aren't the original owner. Two reasons I don't think S&W owes you any service but the Company has done stranger things in the past.

again FWIW

My cousin who is the original owner is still alive. I've received an excellent post on Rimfire Central by John Rainey suggesting that I use an ironing tool made by Tom Menck. Unfortunately Brownells is out of stock and I can't find another supplier. If anyone knows of one I would be grateful to hear from you.

 

[Barrie]

These guns are very ammo selective as mine did the same thing as yours until I switched ammo brands to the ones I stated to you. NO high powered ammo should be used just straight SV. These guns have extremely fine tolerances and will shoot great with the correct ammo. I found out going thru many brands until I hit on these 3. Blazer is made by CCI as well. I will be shooting mine within the next hour and you know what ammo I will be useing.

 

[leinster lad]

As i said before, figure out what the issue is, don't try to compensate for it.

 

[DrakeOwens]

Have a look at how the next round is positioned in the magazine. Is it sitting a little too high and catching the ejecting case that is being extracted ?
Have you tried different magazines ?

Hi, Leinster lad! I don't have the ability or tools to do advanced gunsmithing but this comment got me thinking. The next time I'm able to go to the range(Friday) I'll try shooting the pistol a bunch of times with the magazine removed. This should tell me if there might be a problem with the following round interfering. Thanks! BTW, yes I use two different magazines, one that came with the pistol and another that I recently purchased. They are slightly different but the same problems occur with both equally.

 

[Waldo]

I have a Model 41 that is about 8 years old. It came with the 5 inch heavy barrel. It was not reliable, at least one stovepipe per magazine. I sent it back to the factory, they said they adjusted the barrel fit. It was better, but still not perfect. I have not shot it as much as I hoped to. I recently got a deal on a new 7 inch barrel. I have put maybe 15 magazines thru it. 4 different kinds of ammo. I may have had 5 magazines that did not have a stovepipe. I think I am going to send it back to the factory with both barrels and see what they say. I am very disappointed in this pistol. I have a Ruger Mark I with a 5 in bull barrel that I have had since 1978. The Model 41 has jammed more in the last ten magazines then the Ruger has since 1978. I love my S&W revolvers but regret ever buying the Model 41.

 

[Barrie]

What ammo were you shooting in your m41 Waldo? Try the CCI-SV and let us know what happens please. I had two at our range recently that did not operate correctly either until I gave them 10 rounds each of CCI-SV which worked perfect for them. Now thats the only brand they use. Its the tight tolerances in them that causes them to do this. This is why they are usually sold out of it as it works so well in the m41 and m46 series guns. Here in Canada I have to buy 3-4 bricks at once just to have some in stock. Thats at $70.00 a brick no-less and I am on pension as well.

 

[leinster lad]

Sorry, this is a bit long.

****
I just realised that there are a few different ways that cause feeding/ejecting issues in any self loader.

If you can identify exactly what is happening, it makes diagnosis much easier.

eg.
spent round ejects, but new round stove pipes.
spent round stove pipes
spent round AND new round stove pipe.
spent round does not come out of the chamber/ moves back into the chamber
spent round is ejected but new round does not come out of the magazine

there are probably more, but you get the idea.


I have heard that the M41 chambers have very close tolerances. ( unlike a Glock ! )
This can lead to the case being a bit too tight in the chamber for the extractor to pull out. ( remember, the case expands when fired and grips the chamber until the gas pressure reduces and the case shrinks back to nearly its original size. )
If the slide starts to move back too early, the extractor may not have sufficient grip on the rim of the case to pull it out of the chamber.

There is a slot / ramp machined into the side of the barrel, right at the edge of the chamber.
The extractor slides onto this ramp when the slide is all the way forward ( in battery ). At this point the extractor is NOT holding the rim of the case.
When fired ( after the gas pressure has reduce a bit ) the case starts to move backwards out of the chamber by itself, due to gas pressure and recoil.
This movement pushes the slide rear-wards.
As the slide moves further back, the extractor claw slides down the ramp until it grips the rim of the spent case.
At this point, inertia ( as well as some gas pressure ) continues to move the slide rear-wards and also the case out of the chamber. It is vital that the extractor claw has a good grip on the rim of the case.
As the slide moves further back, the other side of the case ( 180 degrees from the extractor ) contacts the ejector tang, and flicks the case out of the ejection port. ( the case pivots around the extractor claw )
This ejector tang might need a bit of a tweak, to get reliable contact with the rim.

The ejector tang is part of the slide lock lever / bar.

The slide continues to move backwards a bit until finally stopping due to the recoil spring/slide stops/ recoil buffer.
The slide then moves forward, stripping a new round off the magazine and pushing into the chamber.
By this time, the spent case must be well and truly out of the ejection port.

There are lots of factors that affect the "timing" of the movement of the slide.
here are a couple......

The strength of the recoil spring.
The power/velocity of the bullet
The weight of the slide
Your grip.
The strength of the hammer spring ( remember, the slide moveing backwards has to cock the hammer )
Friction of the slide
friction of the slide moving over the hammer
Friction of the slide, sliding over the top of the next round in the magazine.
How much grip the case has in the chamber when fired ( case expands due to gas pressure )

also......

Make sure the extractor "grips" the edge of the case firmly enough, with good spring tension.

To test this;
remove the slide from the frame.
manually put a live round into the breech area, making sure that the extractor claw is gripping around the rim of the case. You should be able to see this easily. ( you need a live round for the weight )
give the slide a bit of a shake side to side.
the bullet should stay firmly where it is and not fall out.
If the extractor does not hold onto the rim of the case, figure out why, because that is most likely your issue.
The extractor "claw" (the part that hooks around the rim ) must have a return angle slightly greater than 90 degrees, so it's grip on the rim is positive. Otherwise it can just slide off the side of the rim.
The extractor must be able to move freely in the slot in the side of the breech block.
The extractor must have good spring tension.

I have heard some people have "polished" the chamber with an oiled .22 brass bore brush, spinning in a drill for a few seconds.
This makes the chamber ever so slightly bigger and may help with the extraction of the spent case.
Drop a round into the chamber.
It should drop into the chamber nice and freely.
It should also (just) fall out of the chamber when the barrel is pointed straight up ( chamber down )
Keep polishing until this occurs.

But always remember to have safe practices whenever working or handling any firearm.

If you are at all not confident to do this yourself, take it to a gunsmith ( who knows what they are doing ! )

 

[Barrie]

Just pick up a box of the CCI-SV ammo and be a Happy Camper. If someone has some at the range then ask to borrow 10 rounds which will prove it to you. Blazer or Wolf brand ammo work just as well but Wolf is the most expensive of the 3, up here at least.

 

[DrakeOwens]

Just pick up a box of the CCI-SV ammo and be a Happy Camper. If someone has some at the range then ask to borrow 10 rounds which will prove it to you. Blazer or Wolf brand ammo work just as well but Wolf is the most expensive of the 3, up here at least.

Aww, you're no fun Barrie! I'm having a ball trying to figure this out, learning a lot too! I drove out of town today just to get some CCI ammo both the MiniMag and the SV. I'm also going to a range I've never been to before to try some test fires without the magazine in place to see what that does. I also want to get an ironing tool to try that but everyone is out. If I was rich I'd probably buy a super slow motion camera just to film the pistol's ejection. Know anyone who has one to spare?? Seriously, I still think the source of the problem is the pistol. I'm also starting to think it's more than one problem. A good pistol should be able to handle any good quality ammo and deep down I believe that the Model 41 is quality.

I also want to get to the bottom of the SV/HV debate. The Model 41 manual does NOT specify so who's right? Both SV(925-1,085) and HV(1,150-1,270) samples have different velocities on the box depending on the brand and manufacturer(all are 40gr.). What does S&W say?

I really appreciate all the people who have taken their time to contribute to this discussion and I hope that you will continue to do so. This is one of the most important ways that I learn. The other is the input I get from the old timers at my gun club which sadly will be forced to close at the end of the year. The Regional Parks District owns the land we use and they refused to renew our lease due to the lead in the soil, it's a bunch of rubbish but they own the land and there was nothing we could do to change their minds short of giving them millions of dollars which we didn't have. Anyway that's another story, thanks again to all!

 

[DrakeOwens]

Near bedtime for me and one question is rattling around. It might be dumb but asking is how I learn. When the pistol fails to extract it almost always still recocks. How is that possible? If the brass never comes out of the breech then how is force applied to the slide to drive it? The brass would block the gas and all of the force would go out the muzzle wouldn't it? I think I know the answer, even if the brass moves only slightly it would hit the slide like a hammer driving it backwards. I think that's what's happening but I'm not sure. Also, why doesn't the slide get stuck trying to chamber another round when the old brass is still in the breech? Maybe the slide isn't going all the way back? Oh well, goodnight.

 

[leinster lad]

N The brass would block the gas and all of the force would go out the muzzle wouldn't it?

Yes, but if the brass gave the breech a bit of a smack ( which sent it rear-ward) and then got hung up in the chamber BEFORE the extractor hook latched onto the rim of the case, this would def do it.
I would be looking to see if the extractor claw was able to latch onto the rim quickly enough.

 

[leinster lad]

oops, just read your edit.

If the brass is not being positively drawn from the chamber, it is the extractor not grabbing the rim of the case properly.
Should be easy to fix

 

[leinster lad]

For clarity...

The chamber is part of the barrel, where the bullet is held before firing.

The breech / breech block is the piece of metal that holds the bullet in the chamber and also houses the firing pin and extractor.

 

[Rowlf]

... If I was rich I'd probably buy a super slow motion camera just to film the pistol's ejection. Know anyone who has one to spare??

There are high speed videos of a Hammerli X-esse cycling with different ammo at Karlslunde Sport Funktionstest The X-esse is the same basic action as a M41.

 

[Tom S.]

My cousin who is the original owner is still alive. I've received an excellent post on Rimfire Central by John Rainey suggesting that I use an ironing tool made by Tom Menck. Unfortunately Brownells is out of stock and I can't find another supplier. If anyone knows of one I would be grateful to hear from you.

I suspect the reason you can't find one is most smiths would use a .22 chamber reamer instead. If, and that's a big 'if', you have a bulge in chamber mouth from firing pin strikes, using a reamer for the first .03 of the chamber should remove it completely. I would not ream the whole chamber as I believe part of the 41's consistency comes from a tight chamber.

 

[Tom S.]

I don't think this problem should be addressed by trying to find a particular ammo that works better. The Model 41 manual only specifies long rifle ammo of good quality. It does not specify weight or velocity. A pistol that fails to perform within these stated boundaries is the source of the problem NOT the ammo. You don't go into a competition with a pistol that might jam. My goal is to correct whatever defect the pistol has. I also consider this a defect covered under warranty.

The history of the Model 41 goes back a long way, and shooters have always acknowledged that it was designed for .22 standard velocity. While that doesn't mean you can't shoot high velocity in the gun, what it does mean that doing so will eventually shorten it's life or cause problems. Similar situations are .38 caliber revolvers that shoot .38 special all day long, but self destruct on a steady diet of Plus P. Even some guns with Plus P rating warn against a steady diet of said ammo.

Since in another thread, you stated you have shot over 10,000 rounds through the gun, the next question concerns maintenance. Have you thoroughly stripped and cleaned the firearm? Also, given that number of rounds, I would strongly consider replacing both the recoil and hammer spring, even though you blew off that suggestion earlier. Springs don't last forever, especially ones approaching 50 years of age.

 

[DrakeOwens]

The history of the Model 41 goes back a long way, and shooters have always acknowledged that it was designed for .22 standard velocity. While that doesn't mean you can't shoot high velocity in the gun, what it does mean that doing so will eventually shorten it's life or cause problems. Similar situations are .38 caliber revolvers that shoot .38 special all day long, but self destruct on a steady diet of Plus P. Even some guns with Plus P rating warn against a steady diet of said ammo.

Since in another thread, you stated you have shot over 10,000 rounds through the gun, the next question concerns maintenance. Have you thoroughly stripped and cleaned the firearm? Also, given that number of rounds, I would strongly consider replacing both the recoil and hammer spring, even though you blew off that suggestion earlier. Springs don't last forever, especially ones approaching 50 years of age.

Hi Tom, thanks for your comments. I guess part of my confusion with SV and/or HV is that neither one is just one velocity and there is only a 75fps difference between the highest SV and the lowest HV. I don't claim to definitively know what the answer is but I'd really appreciate it if S&W would provide a statement to clarify the matter. After all they made the pistol, why can't they take five minutes to put the matter to rest once and for all? Drop the SV/HV and state a recommended velocity range such as 1080-1200fps. That's a 10% range. Frankly, S&W's silence is really starting to get up my nose.

As far as the second comment you made, I don't have the skill to completely disassemble my pistol though I field strip and clean after every session. I'd have to take it to a gunsmith and he would probably want to hold onto it for at least three weeks. The problem is that my gun club is going to lose its lease at the end of the year so I really want to get in as many sessions as I can before that happens. After that I do intend to take it in for a good professional overhaul. When I do take it to him I want to be able to precisely describe what issues I've had. The feedback I've gotten from you and others on this and other forums has provided me with knowledge of things I should do and look for before I take it in. In my profession if a patient can precisely describe their symptoms it makes my job a lot easier. Today I've got new ammo to try and a particular behavior to examine. I really appreciate all the help I've been getting. Thank you all.

 

[Tom S.]

Hi Tom, thanks for your comments. I guess part of my confusion with SV and/or HV is that neither one is just one velocity and there is only a 75fps difference between the highest SV and the lowest HV. I don't claim to definitively know what the answer is but I'd really appreciate it if S&W would provide a statement to clarify the matter. After all they made the pistol, why can't they take five minutes to put the matter to rest once and for all? Drop the SV/HV and state a recommended velocity range such as 1080-1200fps. That's a 10% range. Frankly, S&W's silence is really starting to get up my nose.

As far as the second comment you made, I don't have the skill to completely disassemble my pistol though I field strip and clean after every session. I'd have to take it to a gunsmith and he would probably want to hold onto it for at least three weeks. The problem is that my gun club is going to lose its lease at the end of the year so I really want to get in as many sessions as I can before that happens. After that I do intend to take it in for a good professional overhaul. When I do take it to him I want to be able to precisely describe what issues I've had. The feedback I've gotten from you and others on this and other forums has provided me with knowledge of things I should do and look for before I take it in. In my profession if a patient can precisely describe their symptoms it makes my job a lot easier. Today I've got new ammo to try and a particular behavior to examine. I really appreciate all the help I've been getting. Thank you all.

The accepted norm for SV is 1080, though there is some that's less, especially the sub sonic stuff meant for silenced weapons. I've tried some of the sub sonic and it wouldn't eject the casing, let alone pick up the next round. Blame the ammo companies for HV cocktails. In efforts to top one another, it became a foot race to see who could produce the highest velocity 22LR that wouldn't blow up 100+ year old guns. Some even went so far as to warn against usage in such weapons.

I believe if you research the history of the Model 41, it was designed to shoot in competitive matches, including the Olympics, most of which (perhaps all?) required the use of standard velocity ammo. If I was going to shoot much HV in either of my 41's, I would at a minimum add a recoil buffer to protect the frame, and consider adding a heavier recoil spring, if such an animal exists.

It sucks that you can't work on your own pistol. That's not meant to be a slam in anyway. Some people are mechanically adept and others have talents in other directions. I'm mechanically inclined, but can't draw a stick man without screwing it up. Both my sisters on the other hand paint very nice pictures in oil, but get confused on the "righty-tighty, lefty-loosey" thing. It's the luck of the gene pool draw. Still, if you told your local gunsmith what you wanted, and scheduled an appointment, you might be surprised. I would guesstimate a thorough cleaning to take around 45 minutes, and if you wanted the springs changed at the same time, maybe an extra 5 minutes, since the gun would already be disassembled. Even better would be if he let you watch, or instructed you on how to do it as you did it yourself. You know, the old "teach a man to fish thing".

 

[Gamecock]

Add me to the list; my M41 is a finicky eater.

I have settled into using the Federal HV Match (719). Last hundred rounds I fired worked without incident. Plenty accurate, too.

 

[Barrie]

I want to see you have fun with your new to you gun is why I keep saying go buy the CCI SV ammo and give it a try. Well how did it perform for you? There should have been a BIG difference in performance with that stuff as if that didn't do it then definitely change the springs in that gun.

 

[Waldo]

What ammo were you shooting in your m41 Waldo? Try the CCI-SV and let us know what happens please. I had two at our range recently that did not operate correctly either until I gave them 10 rounds each of CCI-SV which worked perfect for them. Now thats the only brand they use. Its the tight tolerances in them that causes them to do this. This is why they are usually sold out of it as it works so well in the m41 and m46 series guns. Here in Canada I have to buy 3-4 bricks at once just to have some in stock. Thats at $70.00 a brick no-less and I am on pension as well.

I tried some white box Aquila that I got from the CMP 9 or 10 years ago. I also tried some Federal Champion 36 grain HP, some Winchester 33 grain HP, and some Remington 36 grain HP. I am sure I have tried some other stuff over the years. It has never been reliable.
I will look around in the safe and see if I have any SV ammo.
.22 Ammo has been hard to find for the last few years. Mostly if I see it, I buy what they have.
I have at least 5 .22 semi auto guns, either rifles or pistols. I have never had this much trouble with any of them.
If the Model 41 is that picky, and cannot be made to run with a variety of ammo, I will be very disappointed.