M4516-1 failure to fire...reason?

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Fired a friends 4516-1 today. First time for me with that model.
We experienced some failure to fire...looked at the unspent round and it seems like a light strike (small mark on the case). The ammo he had was not recently bought...don't know the exact age.
How can I get the gun up & running without any hiccups?
A good cleaning? New quality ammo?
Any inherent problems with this model?
 
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There is probably gunk in the firing pin channel.

Thanks for the reply. Since my friend is pretty green when it comes to guns I offered to get inside of it. Guess I'll go to Youtube for disassembly videos, since I'm unfamiliar with this particular model.
 
HELLO FRIEND, ITS FAIRLY EASY TO TAKE THE SLIDE APPART AND GIVE IT A GOOD CLEANING. I TOO BELIEVE GUNK IS THE CULPRIT. :)
 
Should there be a lot of gunk in the firing pin channel it will probably be congealed on the firing pin spring as well. While you are in there you may want to replace it too.

Good luck! Regards 18DAI
 
Before you take the safety/decock assembly out, try blasting aerosol gun or brake cleaner into the firing pin hole. Then work the firing pin with a punch. It might just do the trick. On the other hand, I once had a firing pin spring pin break which required disassembly and an order from Wolff Gun Springs.
https://www.gunsprings.com/
 
These two videos should cover accessing and cleaning the firing pin. Do Not take out the extractor or rear sight.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUV8SL_RjFo"]S&W 3RD GENERATION DISASSEMBLY (SLIDE) VIDEO #2 OF 4 [/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z05rUVLm6WE"]S&W 3RD GENERATION REASSEMBLY (SLIDE) VIDEO #3 OF 4 [/ame]
 
First things first:
Manny thanks to those who shared their thoughts.

Well, I just took the disassembly as far as I was comfortable with...got the slide & safety (ugh) off. Downloaded a schematic of that model as well as seeing the above posted Youtube video. I cleaned lots of gunk with the slide off. Everything I could see I cleaned with Hoppes and put the dab of RemOil on the rails. Never made it to the firing pin. If it was my gun I might have gone to the end, after I got some punches and other helpful tools, which I don't have.
Having never owned a S&W semi-auto handgun...just their revolvers. I've owned/own a Beretta, Walther, Colt, Glock semi-auto...I'm familiar with those I've had. This was an interesting adventure.

I'll suggest to my friend if he's going to keep it get anew firing pin, inexpensive, and on-line and bring the gun to a local gunsmith and have him install it

He just got, and I fired for the first time, his 9mm Shield. If he wants only one 9mm semi and asks me which I prefer to have I'd say the Shield. Yeah I know, the 4516 is finely made, especially for it's date of creation...I believe mid-eighties is what I read. It's much heavier if he intends to carry often & for long periods of time. His Shield carries nicely in the IWB position.

Of course if he or anyone sees themselves as a "collector" then the 4516 is really nice to have. If my friend wants to sell it would $500 be a fair price?

Thought a few pics are in order while I still have it in my possession:







 
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I posted earlier I got as far as getting the safety out before I stopped. It was the slide release I made it to, not the safety...cleaning everything I could see. I also never took the grips off. As mentioned before if it was my gun I'd take the time needed to removing the safety and either cleaning or replacing the firing pin.

Since I regularly shoot my S&W 638, my Walther PPX (full size) 9 mm
and Browning Buckmark .22lr, those are the firearms I'm most experienced with regarding take down procedures.
Getting as far as I did with the 4516 was an adventure, but I'm glad I opened the hood.
 
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Understandable. The first time I took the safety out of my 3913TSW, I was as nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs. If it was someone else's gun, I'd have been even more nervous.

Removing the slide stop is actually part of the routine stripping done during cleaning. I find reassembly a PITA sometimes since all of the components need to line up. That becomes easier with practice, but if it's not your gun, you're not going to be doing it on a regular basis.

I'd still recommend a firing pin spring over a firing pin.

I posted earlier I got as far as getting the safety out before I stopped. It was the slide release I made it to, not the safety...cleaning everything I could see. I also never took the grips off. As mentioned before if it was my gun I'd take the time needed to removing the safety and either cleaning or replacing the firing pin.

Since I regularly shoot my S&W 638, my Walther PPX (full size) 9 mm
and Browning Buckmark .22lr, those are the firearms I'm most experienced with regarding take down procedures.
Getting as far as I did with the 4516 was an adventure, but I'm glad I opened the hood.
 
Have a local smith (familiar with S&W metal-framed pistols) clean out the firing pin channel.

Removal of the manual safety assembly and firing pin is needed for that task.

Someone unfamiliar with the process may easily reassemble the gun improperly, or even damage parts.

As an armorer who supported approx a thousand 3rd gen's over the years, I had to clean out accumulated fouling, debris and outright sludge from firing pin channels and firing pin springs.

The good news is that I also inspected early vintage 3rd gen's which had been in-service for many years, since they were new, and the firing pin channels were completely dry and free of any fouling. Just a very light dusting of carbon on some spots, but nothing which interfered with normal functioning.

The common cause of a nasty, fouled firing pin chamber is improper owner/user cleaning practices.

Letting excessive liquids (solvents, CLP's, oils) run into the firing pin channel can easily result in the trapped liquids attracting and accumulating fouling, debris (primer cup shaving and brass shavings from the case rim edges) and any other contaminants. Those things can eventually turn into a heavy sludge which will either interfere with the firing pin's freedom of movement, or lodge between the firing pin spring's coils, interfering with its compression ... or both. Light-strikes result. Pretty predictable.

We started teaching our people to hold the slides pointing muzzle downward when brushing the breech faces, so gravity would help keep any solvents or CLP's (depending what we were using at any time) from running into the firing pin hole.

Naturally, it also helped not to excessively "drench" a brush in liquid and slather it on the gun. (You're not cleaning your mag wheels.)

Then, making sure excessively applied liquids weren't introduced into the other entry points for the firing pin channel was also helpful - meaning the rear of the firing pin; ... the sides of the manual safety assembly/levers; ... the bottom of the manual safety assembly, meaning the "cylinder" you see rotate when you move the safety levers; ... and the bottom of the slide where the steel and plastic plungers are located (firing pin safety lever and ejector depressor lever). All of those places are potential entry points to the firing pin channel.

I'm not a particular fan of aerosol cleaners, either. In my experience they can present a couple potential issues. First, if you use a spray product intended for automotive application, such as brake cleaner, it may cause a rapid temperature change that can create condensation ... and then that condensation can't escape the space in which it's trapped, so you can risk rust, which is never good thing for the firing pin, or the springs which tension the 2 plungers in the slide, next to the firing pin channel.

Secondly, while a forceful spray can force its way inside those small confined spaces, the resulting liquids - and the loosened fouling they may carry with them - may not easily find their way back out.

A lightly moistened patch (think a couple of drops), wrapped around the wide or narrow head of a dry brush, can loosen, lift and clean away a surprising amount of fouling. Without saturating the surfaces of a gun like you were washing a car.

FWIW, some of these same considerations apply to cleaning the extractor hook. Don't introduce excessive liquids that can become trapped underneath and behind the extractor. A dry brush can clean away fouling behind the hook.

Also, when you're cleaning under the slide of a S&W 3rd gen 9/.40, notice the thin machined slot along the right side of the center pick-up rail? That opens into the extractor recess. (The .45's don't have that opening.)

Letting excessive liquids run inside can let them accumulate - with fouling, debris, contaminants, etc - and they can also start to thicken or solidify, which may introduce some extractor functioning issues.

Too much buildup behind the hook, at the front of the extractor (just behind the opening), and failures-to-extract may occur (because the extractor can't close enough to get a firm grasp on the rim anymore).

Too much buildup at the rear (under the tail, where the extractor spring is also located), and failures-to-feed may occur. Debris may accumulate around and within the extractor spring, which can interfere with the normal compression of the spring, and the extractor tail movement, so the front of the extractor may no longer be able to open wide enough to accept a case rim sliding under it.

One thing I started doing over the years, to demonstrate to some of our people how they were using an excessive amount of liquids in "cleaning" their extractors, was to take them into the armorer's bench, where we had an air compressor.

I used the narrow nozzle (with them wearing safety glasses) to blast the air upward, directly into the narrow machined slot on the bottom of the slide (under the extractor recess, remember?) ... and let them be totally surprised by the mass of black liquid and sludge that suddenly came out from all around the top, bottom and rear of the extractor (looking at the extractor in the side of the slide). Making sure the compressor wasn't able to blow condensation into the confined space, using the compressor, was important. Moisture and small springs aren't a good combination. ;)

Gunking up firing pins, extractors, plungers and all of their related springs, is unnecessary and undesirable, all things considered. Easy to prevent, too.

Just don't introduce liquids to those confined spaces as the result of inattentive or improper cleaning practices.

Yes, if the gun ever becomes contaminated, such as if dropped into standing or moving water, it really ought to be disassembled and cleaned out by a smith (or S&W pistol armorer, if you happen to know one). I've seen what can happen with a 3rd gen if someone submerges it (think sea water :rolleyes: ) and decides to wait a year before reporting it. Rust never sleeps. ;)

Just some thoughts.
 
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Oh yeah, as an armorer I'd naturally check for a chipped firing pin tip.

I've even seen one nastily bent firing pin, which had created the weirdest elongated firing pin hole I'd ever seen, or ever hope to see. :eek:
 
Have a local smith (familiar with S&W metal-framed pistols) clean out the firing pin channel.

Removal of the manual safety assembly and firing pin is needed for that task.

Someone unfamiliar with the process may easily reassemble the gun improperly, or even damage parts.

As an armorer who supported approx a thousand 3rd gen's over the years, I had to clean out accumulated fouling, debris and outright sludge from firing pin channels and firing pin springs.

The good news is that I also inspected early vintage 3rd gen's which had been in-service for many years, since they were new, and the firing pin channels were completely dry and free of any fouling. Just a very light dusting of carbon on some spots, but nothing which interfered with normal functioning.

The common cause of a nasty, fouled firing pin chamber is improper owner/user cleaning practices.

Letting excessive liquids (solvents, CLP's, oils) run into the firing pin channel can easily result in the trapped liquids attracting and accumulating fouling, debris (primer cup shaving and brass shavings from the case rim edges) and any other contaminants. Those things can eventually turn into a heavy sludge which will either interfere with the firing pin's freedom of movement, or lodge between the firing pin spring's coils, interfering with its compression ... or both. Light-strikes result. Pretty predictable.

We started traching our people to hod the slides pointing muzzle downward when brushing the breech faces, so gravity would help keep any solvents or CLP's (depending what we were using at any time) from running into the firing pin hole.

Naturally, it also helped not to excessively "drench" a brush in liquid and slather it on the gun. (You're not cleaning your mag wheels.)

Then, making sure excessively applied liquids weren't introduced into the other entry points for the firing pin channel was also helpful - meaning the rear of the firing pin; ... the sides of the manual safety assembly/levers; ... the bottom of the manual safety assembly, meaning the "cylinder" you see rotate when you move the safety levers; ... and the bottom of the slide where the steel and plastic plungers are located (firing pin safety lever and ejector depressor lever). All of those places are potential entry points to the firing pin channel.

I'm not a particular fan of aerosol cleaners, either. In my experience they can present a couple potential issues. First, if you use a spray product intended for automotive application, such as brake cleaner, it may cause a rapid temperature change that can create condensation ... and then that condensation can't escape the space in which it's trapped, so you can risk rust, which is never good thing for the firing pin, or the springs which tension the 2 plungers in the slide, next to the firing pin channel.

Secondly, while a forceful spray can force its way inside those small confined spaces, the resulting liquids - and the loosened fouling they may carry with them - may not easily find their way back out.

A lightly moistened patch (think a couple of drops), wrapped around the wide or narrow head of a dry brush, can loosen, lift and clean away a surprising amount of fouling. Without saturating the surfaces of a gun like you were washing a car.

FWIW, some of these same considerations apply to cleaning the extractor hook. Don't introduce excessive liquids that can become trapped underneath and behind the extractor. A dry brush can clean away fouling behind the hook.

Also, when you're cleaning under the slide of a S&W 3rd gen 9/.40, notice the thin machined slot along the right side of the center pick-up rail? That opens into the extractor recess. (The .45's don't have that opening.)

Letting excessive liquids run inside can let them accumulate - with fouling, debris, contaminants, etc - and they can also start to thicken or solidify, which may introduce some extractor functioning issues.

Too much buildup behind the hook, at the front of the extractor (just behind the opening), and failures-to-extract may occur (because the extractor can't close enough to get a firm grtasp on the rim anymore).

Too much build at the rear (under the tail, where the extractor spring is also located), and failures-to-feed may occur. Debris may accumulate around and within the extractor spring, which can interfere with the normal compression of the spring, and the extractor tail movement, so the front of the extractor may no longer be able to open wide enough to accept a case rim sliding under it.

One thing I started doing over the years, to demonstrate to some of our people how they were using an excessive amount of liquids in "cleaning" their extractors, was to take them into the armorer's bench, where we had an air compressor.

I used the narrow nozzle (with them wearing safety glasses) to blast the air upward, directly into the narrow machined slot on the bottom of the slide (under the extractor recess, remember?) ... and let them be totally surprised by the mass of black liquid and sludge that suddenly came out from all around the top, bottom and rear of the extractor (looking at the extractor in the side of the slide). Making sure the compressor wasn't able to blow condensation into the confined space, using the compressor, was important. Moisture and small springs aren't a good combination. ;)

Gunking up firing pins, extractors, plungers and all of their related springs, is unnecessary and undesirable, all things considered. Easy to prevent, too.

Just don't introduce liquids to those confined spaces as the result of inattentive or improper cleaning practices.

Yes, if the gun ever becomes contaminated, such as if dropped into standing or moving water, it really ought to be disassembled and cleaned out by a smith (or S&W pistol armorer, if you happen to know one). I've seen what can happen with a 3rd gen if someone submerges it (think sea water :rolleyes: ) and decides to wait a year before reporting it. Rust never sleeps. ;)

Just some thoughts.


Fastbolt, that's some thoughts. I'll be forwarding those thoughts to my friend...let him decide...and I learned something about that gun...I won't be buying one anytime soon. lol
Your experience is evident & obviously speaks for itself. Thanks much.
 
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Fastbolt, that's some thoughts. I'll be forwarding those thoughts to my friend...let him decide...and I learned something about that gun...I won't be buying one anytime soon. lol
Your experience is evident & obviously speaks for itself. Thanks much.

De nada.

You might consider that everything I mentioned about improper cleaning risking contaminating a firing pin channel in a hammer-fired pistols goes even more so for most of the plastic striker-fired pistols, since they can have really large openings under the rear of the striker-type firing pin (for the lug to engage, and move with, the trigger bar, sear, etc).

Some of the plastic pistols even have "debris" holes toward the front of the channel, into which there's more opportunity for excessive amounts of liquids to find they way into the channel.

Bottom line, it's not difficult for someone to use improper, exuberant or overly-aggressive cleaning methods to cause themselves some occasional issues. I've often watched guys and gals use enough CLP to "clean" their one pistol, which I could use to clean a couple dozen. The only thing that can easily withstand being exposed to excessive amounts of CLP or solvent is ... the barrel (when removed from the slide). ;)

BTW, mixing some gun cleaning products may have unexpected results. (Reading labels is a good idea.)

For example, we were cautioned in another company's class (meaning not S&W) to make sure that if we used solvent, that it was completely wiped off surfaces before we applied CLP, as some solvents & CLP, when mixed, can become a sticky mixture. I'd not previously heard that company offer that warning, so I'd imagine it's possible that they'd come across something like that situation among one (or more) of their customer's guns, and decided to mention it in the armorer classes.

As an armorer, I've had to resolve more "gun problems" which were really caused by improper cleaning and lubrication, than actual mechanical problems with guns.
 
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De nada.

You might consider that everything I mentioned about improper cleaning risking contaminating a firing pin channel in a hammer-fired pistols goes even more so for most of the plastic striker-fired pistols, since they can have really large openings under the rear of the striker-type firing pin (for the lug to engage, and move with, the trigger bar, sear, etc).

Some of the plastic pistols even have "debris" holes toward the front of the channel, into which there's more opportunity for excessive amounts of liquids to find they way into the channel.

Bottom line, it's not difficult for someone to use improper, exuberant or overly-aggressive cleaning methods to cause themselves some occasional issues. I've often watched guys and gals use enough CLP to "clean" their one pistol, which I could use to clean a couple dozen. The only thing that can easily withstand being exposed to excessive amounts of CLP or solvent is ... the barrel (when removed from the slide). ;)

BTW, mixing some gun cleaning products may have unexpected results. (Reading labels is a good idea.)

For example, we were cautioned in another company's class (meaning not S&W) to make sure that if we used solvent, that it was completely wiped off surfaces being we applied CLP, as some solvents & CLP, when mixed, can become a sticky mixture. I'd not previously heard that company offer that warning, so I'd imagine it's possible that they'd come across something like that situation among one (or more) of their customer's guns, and decided to mention it in the armorer classes.

As an armorer, I've had to resolve more "gun problems" which were really caused by improper cleaning and lubrication, than actual mechanical problems with guns.

Nice tutorial. You may want to post this on a separate, sticky,
semi-auto care thread. I'm sure there are many on this site who would benefit from it.

The only semi-autos in my possession now are a Browning Browning Buckmark UFX Camper (22lr.) and a Walther PPX (9mm). No problem for me to take these down and clean properly...I use them 2x a week and inspect/clean after every use.

Why not do a sticky on revolver care? Your advice would also be appreciated by all.

Did some target shooting this morning with the Buckmark in the desert surrounding Las Vegas...nice accurate, fun piece...had a 8" gong about 70 yards out (no scope) and a small spinner @ 25 yards.
 
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Thanks, but I eschew having my posts become anything like a "sticky".

Also, I'm not anybody's idea of an "expert", and virtually everything I've ever posted (or taught, when working) can be laid at the feet of someone else who taught it to me.

The idea about some practical cleaning methods for revolvers is a good one, though. Fortunately, there are some more knowledgeable revolver armorers and smiths to be found on the forum. I've only ever attended a single S&W revolver armorer class, and I haven't had the opportunity to go back and recert (and last I heard, the company had a dwindling number of revolver armorer instructors from which to draw). Much of what I learned about supporting DA revolvers was helped along by the former head armorer at my former agency (an old hand with S&W & Colt revolvers), and an excellent gentleman at S&W (who formerly worked for a small custom gun company who produced handmade handguns).

Now, my armorer classes/recerts number a little more for some of the assorted pistols, so I maintain a little more current levels of knowledge and experience with some of them (5xGlock; 5xM&P pistol; 4x S&W 3rd gen; 3xSW99/P99, with some others making up, I think, a total of 26 classes, as of earlier this year).

Lots of very knowledgeable and experienced revolver guys of whom to ask questions on this forum. I'm just not yet in their company. ;)
 
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Some of us have been taking notes, Fastbolt. :cool: I do a lot of engineering substantiation research on my day job and have to be mindful of productive/unproductive information.

I guess now I need to go find your comments on Colt revolvers...
 

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