Made it to the range today...

[Panhandler80]

Made it to the range today.

With me I had:

- One clean barrel
- 50 rounds of American Eagle 240s
- 20 rounds of Hornady 240 XTP
- 100 rounds of Underwood 240gr
- 1 little Caldwell tripod with wheel on bolt that will spin rest U/D
- 1 handgun bag
- 1 public bench rest at 50 yards

Set up with the piece of frame ahead of trigger guard on the rest. Grip was suspended by my most natural 2-hand grip. Forearms on the gun bag. Groups nothing like last time when I had the heel supported, but this particular rest technique will be very similar to hunting scenario.

First up was some barrel fouling with the American Eagles. First 6 shots were just plain awful. The only pattern I could gather from those 6 was that I was Right, and that was it.

Next 6 American Eagle were a lot better. Made an adjustment.

Then 6 more American Ealges down the tube. Best group of 6 American eagles. Made one little adjustment on sight.

Now to the Hornadys, which have a little more heat. Shot 12 in a row, which is the grouping you see here. 11 of the 12 were in about a 8 or 9" circle centered around bull's. Had on that was high.

After that, I decided to try the Underwood. Very first shot touched bull's. From there, the next 5 were scattered. Ended up shooting 12 more of them, with nothing to brag about.

This was also about the time I started getting "tips" from the range master dude. It's a hell of an operation run by Florida Wildlife. They'v got a 16 foot handgun range, 25 foot handgun range, 50 yard rifle, 100 yard rifle, 300 yard rifle, trap range, and 18 station sporting clay course. Pretty neat.

Anyway, they guy was really nice and I kinda wanted to entertain his suggestions. Looking back, I probably should have just kept to my routine. The Underwood rounds didn't bother me at all. Was getting dark, and I did notice some flash, but recoil was fine.

I do know for a fact that consistency in hold is PARAMOUNT. He started giving tips on where finger should be on trigger, etc. I'm sure all this is true, but if I can close my eyes and grab the gun the same way safely and comfortably, then who cares?

In summation:

- 18 rounds of continual improvement with American Eagles
- 11/12 Hornady 240 XTPs in about 8 or 9" (pictured)... wanted to shoot more, but I only have 20 with me (40 more on order) and wanted 6 for hunting this weekend
- 18 rounds of Underwood with bulls eye in first shot, then mixed results.

I was at the range for a total of maybe 45 minutes. Is that about the pace a newbie should be shooting? I didn't feel tired, but maybe some fatigue was sinking in.

Only second time shooting gun. I think with a rest of any kind and a consistent grip, I'm set for a deer killing inside 40 yards. I've got 8 of those Hornady's left. I know all of these rounds and the gun are WAY better than me. But I left the Hornady's on a positive, so I have confidence going for me.

Also of note... my ear protection were just little rubber inserts. Plenty of sound protection, but they did noting for pressure when rifle guys to my left and right were firing off. I'd be calm and trying to focus when muzzle blast would pump my whole sinus cavity. Do the large muff-type deals help with neighbor's muzzle blast. I guess you might ust get used to it. I typically sight in at private property, but this was only option today.

I'm thinking I'll leave the barrel fouled for Saturday's hunt.

Anyway, these were 12 consecutive shots at 50. High and left the only serious flyer. Have a LOT of practicing to do, but I'm sure I'll get there with time. Gun has total of 96 rounds through it.

Again, nothing like Monday group-wise, but I was supporting back of gun and I had a LOT of distractions at the range.

(PS - Is it just me, or is Photobucket TERRIBLE? I used to use it for hosting pics on some forums I participate on. Those forums have all switched to allowing you to upload from computer. Ayway, getting stuff on PHotobucket just about not worth it.





Best round Monday at 50 while hands were between grip and sandbag... A lot better, but if that's not to be expected in real life, then why bother... that's my thinking.

 

[jbtrucker]

What was between the clean barrel and tripod ?

 

[Panhandler80]

What was between the clean barrel and tripod ?

My bad.... not actually a "tripod" tripod... this little Caldwell guy.



I had aft end of weapon suspended by two hand grip, with elbows planted on gun bag. Back mostly erect. A version of this will most likely be hunting set up.

The rest I was using. Well... similar to this. Mine doesn't have that actuator arm that you see here. PRetty sure it's by Caldwell. It's green. This design, though. In stand i'll be resting gun on a Y yoke attached to a pair of telescoping shooting sticks that I've used before gun hunting long distance from climber with no shooting rail. Have a little system that should work with handgun.

 

[Win94ae]

Practice, practice, practice!

As long as you are not getting frustrated, you are probably learning. Hopefully you are not learning bad habits. That is why it is good to have someone knowledgeable watching.

Good luck!

 

[MajorD]

I always wear plugs then muffs. Deadening noise ( either from you or a neighboring shooter) is very helpful to preserve hearing and allow you to focus better.

 

[SeamasterSig]

I always wear plugs then muffs. Deadening noise ( either from you or a neighboring shooter) is very helpful to preserve hearing and allow you to focus better.

I can't remember the last time I shot next to a rifle, but I usually double up, too – especially indoors. I wear the same "Worlds Finest Ear Plugs" that I wear on my motorcycle, using the weed whacker, etc., along with whatever muffs the range offers (note to self: get your own pair of muffs...).

 

[SeamasterSig]

I was at the range for a total of maybe 45 minutes. Is that about the pace a newbie should be shooting? I didn't feel tired, but maybe some fatigue was sinking in.

I have a 5" 629-3, so I know what to expect from that package. Maybe the extra 3 3/8" helps a lot with recoil. I usually end up shooting 44 mag as well as 357 mag out of a K-frame in the same session and I can definitely feel it the next day. If your hand and wrist can handle it, you're pacing yourself just fine. Everyone is different in that regard. However, maybe you should get in more practice time with milder 44 mag before going too crazy with the high powered stuff. This is where reloading would be useful. 44 spl clocking 1000-1100 fps is an awesome practice round. But good luck trying to find such ammo off the shelf.

(PS - Is it just me, or is Photobucket TERRIBLE?

It's not just you. Photobucket used to be a lot more user-friendly. Nowadays with all the advertising and presumably higher traffic on its servers it's definitely slow and a PITA.

 

[rwsmith]

You are going at it systematically......

....and making good progress. i think that you are on the right track.

Try standing in case you don't have a handy gun rest.


PS. Is the Hornady bullet really suited for deer?

 

[jaymoore]

Clean barrel may likely explain the improvement after the first cylinder. Esp. if the cylinder had been cleaned as well. There's a reason my competition revolvers get their insides cleaned as rarely as possible!

45 minutes seems a frantic pace. Relatively speaking. Dry fire a fair amount in the position in which you will be shooting before pulling the trigger on live ammo. Not just at home but immediately before you shoot at the range. Watch the sights at you pull the trigger and watch what happens at hammer fall. If things are a bit jumpy, try altering position and dry test again. Follow through is increasingly important as distances get long.

Eventually, you should be able to shoot 50yd groups 6" or less, standing, given good technique, ammo the revolver likes, and LOTS of rounds downrange. Use the bench to figure out what your gun likes, then do your best to concentrate on shooting without support. Because deer have a tendency to show up where, even from a stand, you will have to make the shot without help!

It will still be helpful to learn the zero changes between unsupported and supported positions.

And, yes, P'bucket can be frightfully annoying to use. But I've right at 10,000 photos located there! Hope to find an alternate one day.

 

[Sevens]

As for fouling the bore and "leaving the bore fouled...", I wouldn't clean the bore at all anymore. If you are using cast lead bullets, that's a different story. Once a season if ya feel like you must. Absolutely clean the chambers and wipe clean everything you can reach, but scrubbing the bore for jacketed handgun ammo? I don't see any gain.

I'm sure some will disagree, and perhaps vehemently so, which is fine, but it won't change my mind.

 

[jaymoore]

As for fouling the bore and "leaving the bore fouled...", I wouldn't clean the bore at all anymore. If you are using cast lead bullets, that's a different story. Once a season if ya feel like you must. Absolutely clean the chambers and wipe clean everything you can reach, but scrubbing the bore for jacketed handgun ammo? I don't see any gain.

I'm sure some will disagree, and perhaps vehemently so, which is fine, but it won't change my mind.

Disagree only as regards cast bullets and/or cleaning chambers IF that includes the throats. But if you have leading, then you do have to clean when accuracy falls off.

AND, DO clean the copper fouling out before shooting lead. The copper wash is like a "lead magnet".

For hunting purposes, shoot and don't clean until after season end or in case of rain, etc. Not that rain should endanger stainless much. Sweat/blood? Different story!

 

[Panhandler80]

May need to look into the muffs for public range practice. Again, I like to shoot at the range on some private land. It is for a large lease that surrounds my little private piece. I have permission to use it form lease folks, and land owner, but... that usually means 3-4 rifle shots at beginning of year, or maybe a dozen after changing bullets. Not sure how they're going to fell about me firing off 40-50 rounds frequently. Maybe not as big of deal during off season.

Clean barrel may likely explain the improvement after the first cylinder. Esp. if the cylinder had been cleaned as well. There's a reason my competition revolvers get their insides cleaned as rarely as possible!

45 minutes seems a frantic pace. Relatively speaking. Dry fire a fair amount in the position in which you will be shooting before pulling the trigger on live ammo. Not just at home but immediately before you shoot at the range. Watch the sights at you pull the trigger and watch what happens at hammer fall. If things are a bit jumpy, try altering position and dry test again. Follow through is increasingly important as distances get long.

Eventually, you should be able to shoot 50yd groups 6" or less, standing, given good technique, ammo the revolver likes, and LOTS of rounds downrange. Use the bench to figure out what your gun likes, then do your best to concentrate on shooting without support. Because deer have a tendency to show up where, even from a stand, you will have to make the shot without help!

It will still be helpful to learn the zero changes between unsupported and supported positions.

And, yes, P'bucket can be frightfully annoying to use. But I've right at 10,000 photos located there! Hope to find an alternate one day.

I had cleaned the bore and the cylinder after my first range trip. I will refrain from doing so for rest of season. 45 minutes and 48 rounds seemed kind of frantic. That also included 3 trips down range to patch target, and some down time while range folks got their stuff back together before going live. So time actually at bench behind gun might have been like 35 minutes even.

I did a little bit of the dry firing at bench at very beginning. First few shots were so bad (had to be cleaning) that I got a little frustrated and started popping them off fairly quickly. Looking back, once things settled in a little, I should have slowed down and thought through each shot... dry fired... focused on tuning out neighbor's rounds, etc.

I'm going to try to go back today with a support for back of gun using the same rest I had yesterday. Wish I had more of the Hornady's because I plan to shoot them. Guess I'll need to see what I can do with either the Underwoods that I have (nearly 80) or the remaining American Eagle (which I can easily buy more of on the way out there). Thinking next best step might be to go back to a really secure bench, and then see what that does to accuracy. My best round of 12 yesterday was centered around bull's, it was just a bit on large side. Would be nice to go back with more stable rest and see that group shrink by half. Could then practice standing a little bit like you're talking about.

....and making good progress. i think that you are on the right track.

Try standing in case you don't have a handy gun rest.


PS. Is the Hornady bullet really suited for deer?

I hope so. When I first joined forum there were tons of folks saying it's perfectly suited for small deer. Be really lucky for me to run into a buck over 150 pounds. Other websites / forums said basically same thing. Am I missing something?

Thanks for all the help guys.

 

[scooter123]

When I did this

with this

The lead in was 6 weeks of practicing twice a week with 100 rounds expended at each practice session. BTW, these were the very last 7 rounds I had with me and the scope shot loose after shot 4 or 5. That flyer way right is due to me snatching the trigger on shot 5. Shots 6 & 7 are the double on the right. Ammo used was American Eagle 130 grain 38 special and the revolver is the tensioned barrel model 620 L frame 357 Magnum.

Obviously I'm another person telling you that there is no substitute for PRACTICE. At 50 yards and more EVERYTHING you do during the firing process from start to finish is CRITICAL.

First, you have to be consistent with your head position when shooting for precision with either iron sights or with Optics. I do not care a bit about the claims for minimal "paralax", there are many other aberrations with optics that can effect how will you can see the target and I happen to believe that many claims of "zero paralax" at a certain range are based on the eye position being held to a rather small error circle. So, you need to practice attaining that "perfect" alignment between you and the gun.

Second, there is the Trigger Technique. As my target demonstrates getting the "yips" and snatching the trigger won't have a positive result. The only solution for this is lots of time practicing with live fire. I can also tell you the reason why I did this with 38 special ammunition is because the recoil of the 357 Magnum tends to cause me to develop an Anticipation Flinch when I shoot too many in one session. My personal limit for Magnums is between 30 and 45 rounds before I start pushing down. Point is, practice with the mild stuff and either use Kentucky Windage with your sight system or keep a record of the sight change required between the light practice ammo and the hard hitting Magnums.

Finally there is the Recoil Management phase of firing a shot. Many shooters may claim that a shooter cannot effect the flight of a bullet by how he manages the recoil and I will tell you that claim is 100% wrong. They just haven't been shooting at ranges long enough to demonstrate the importance of CONSISTENT Recoil Management. Take it will someone who has actually tested this effect and someone who is a bit challenged with Recoil Management with barrels longer than 4 inches. My test was with my 6 1/2 inch model 610 because it's a revolver that always tests me in this area. First I shot a group at 35 yards with my hands on a rest and restrained the revolver during recoil. Then I shot another cylnder at the very same distance but allowed the muzzle to flip vertically with as little restraint on the muzzle flip as was safe to do. The result was a 12 inch difference in the height of the groups on the target. If you don't think how you manage recoil cant "throw" your shots try repeating this experiment for yourself and use a LARGE target because the longer the barrel the more dwell time for the bullet in the barrel and the more deviation you will observe.

Additional tips. First, take a good long look at that scope mount of yours to insure that mount isn't contacting the barrel. I was able to have a scope mount on my 620 that contacted the Barrel Shroud because the 620 features a 2 piece Tensioned Barrel. Your 629 does not feature a tensioned barrel and anything contacting that barrel will reduce the accuracy. Fact is you may find if you remove that scope and shoot with irons you'll get tighter groups. Yeah, something in contact with the barrel can reduce accuracy that much. Second, make sure NOTHING is in contact with the barrel when you fire a shot. That means shooting sticks or a bench rest cannot touch your barrel. If you don't believe this try it for yourself and see what happens. BTW, tried sandbag resting the barrel on my 610 and groups went from 2 inches at 35 yards to nearly 6 inches.

PS; you have probably noticed I've done a lot of experimenting with my 6 1/2 inch 610 and the reason for that is the long barrel really demonstrates I'm a bit lacking in Recoil Management skills. Truth is that I can put 12 out of 12 into a 11 inch target at 50 yards with my 2 1/2 inch model 19 and it's a good day for me if I can get 6 out of 12 with the 610. Of course one cheat for me with the model 19 is that the front site fills the rear notch so tightly that repeating on sight alignment is much easier. However the other factor is that short barrel has so little dwell time for the bullet that I can't "throw" my shots nearly as far as I can with the 610. Yeah, I really should practice more with the 610 but I have no self control at all around that 19 and it is so much fun to shoot.

 

[Panhandler80]

Scooter - Right on, brotha!

I agree that recoil mgmt is 100% crucial. To say that it isn't would be to say that a consistent grip is not, either? IMHO.

I hope to get back to range today and slow my pace. Hunting tomorrow and not Hong t to fight Sat crowds at public range.

Head position not something I'd thought about. Good news is I can just about lift gun with eyes closed, open them and have red dot in in dominant eye when I open them. FEEL like I'm pretty consistent there.

Barrel in now way touching anything other than frame.

I just need more practice. Feel pretty good about deer vitals at 25 yards tomorrow.

I don't think I'm anticipating trigger badly. Shot those Underwood and found it just plain fun.

 

[iPac]

I have been trying to take one with my Python for a couple years. I used it for the first week this year, then put it back in the safe and pulled out the 308 Winchester Featherweight.

As I mentioned before, handgun hunting with optics at any kind of distance is not easy if using free handed hold. So I usually recommend against it because clean kills are dramatically reduced. However, certain situations are different and I am sure there are people who hunt in a way that a revolver would work. Like only hunt from places with rests or where deer will be within 30yds, etc. So here is my experience with handgun hunting and some tips I have come across.

First, when sighting your gun in and then practicing shots, it is imperative that you shoot the ammo you plan to actually hunt with. Different ammo has different POI due to power. If you keep switching, your optics will never be dialed in for one particular load. My hunting load was 158gr XTP home brews. These were 357mag, and I never once felt it wouldn't get the job done. So rest easy knowing XTP in 44 will serve you well. The XTP is a great hunting bullet.

Second, practice shooting in the stance or scenario you will most likely be in out in the field. Only use the rest to zero in the optics, or if you are actually going to use a rest in the field. After that, shoot like you will in the field. If that means free hand shots, then I would be practicing free handed.

My hunting is mostly done free hand. It is rare for me to have a rest of any kind available. If I could shoot from a rest in the field, I would have total confidence out to 75yds.

The reason for dumping my revolver after the first week? Well, the whole first week I was seeing a lot of doe, which I couldn't shoot yet. I decided to use those instances to practice for when a buck comes. So when I would see doe coming by, I would slowly get ready, pull up, aim, and just practice getting cross hairs on target. After multiple attempts, I found it extremely hard to nonchalantly pull your revolver up without notice, look through the scope, find a deer at 30+yds in heavily wooded areas, be able to keep the hairs on the deer as they travel through the heavily wooded area, and then be able to determine an opening in the surroundings so a shot can be taken. Also, while you are looking through the scope to find them, the long eye relief will 'shadow out' with the slightest bit of lateral movement. With a scope on 6x and looking at a deer at 50yds, it is almost impossible to keep the crosshairs still free handed. Maybe red dots and the like are different, but a regular scope is a pain for anything other than extremely easy hunting situations.

On the range, I was able to confidently hit out to 50yds free hand. My bench rest groupings were great. My last four shots @50yds were grouped into .75". It was the difficulty of quickly putting a deer in the scope and having time to take an accurate, clean shot out in the field that made me bail on it this year. I hunt to fill the freezer, and to risk not getting anything because I want to use a revolver is foolish. I opted for the rifle to end the season and landed a 140# doe to fill my freezer. I shot it at about 60yds in heavily wooded area out of a tree stand. I would not have made that shot with my pistol and wouldn't even have attempted it.

Good luck with your progress. Practice makes perfect. I hope these tips give you some help. Here is my hunting setup.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Interesting posts here, although you never really mentioned what kind of gun you were shooting. All I have to offer is that the position of your finger on the trigger does have an impact on accuracy.

 

[Panhandler80]

PC 629 is gun.

iPac... I have a 30mm tuned red dot. Target acquisition pretty intuitive. .. at least has seemed that way so far.

I'm hunting a staging area of with modeate cover between feed source and bedding. they sometimes scoot pretty good in am, but in pm they move pretty slowly and offer lots of shots.

I'm with you on the other points.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

Scooter has lots of interesting points here.If I might add my 2 cents,we all have good days and bad days;same conditions with tremendously different results.One more reason to practice a lot to determine your real average performance(we all tend to brag about the best we've done; I being the first culprit).
Qc

 

[Panhandler80]

Scooter has lots of interesting points here.If I might add my 2 cents,we all have good days and bad days;same conditions with tremendously different results.One more reason to practice a lot to determine your real average performance(we all tend to brag about the best we've done; I being the first culprit).
Qc

Oh, I've got NOTHING to brag about. Even my "best" is pretty crappy. Just happy to have an improvement in grouping.

Taking gun to deer woods tomorrow morning. I WILL have an opportunity based off sign, trail cams and wind direction. Hopefully I can seal the deal. It's a bow stand, and for some reason, they are in an archery pattern at the moment.

I promise to report back... Win, Lose or Draw. Sure hope it's a win.

Should be a 20-35 yard shot.

Earlier this evening I went up a tree in the yard with my climber. Found a few ways to get gun in a rest using same grip I've been using at range. SHOULD equal death.

Hopefully a decent buck doesn't go marching by out of range, or even close for that matter! Not sure I'd be able to keep my cool.

Hahaha!

If tomorrow AM no good, I'm going to hunt a different stand with handgun and rifle. It is more of a food source area where you could see yearslings and does at 30, 40, 50 yards, or a mature buck at 20,30 or 3 hundred. Can also bring two weapons there. Figured I'll be on the ready with handgun in case a doe comes up close. If buck is way off, I'll pull out long gun and wax him.

Fun times.

Happy new year all!