Magnum Primers

[ColColt]

I was mulling over some 357 data from an old source(Speer #9) and comparing it to later (Speer#14) manuals and noticed some recommendations of a magnum primer with such powders as 2400, H110, 296 and in some cases, even HS-6. Oddly enough, the #14 manual doesn't show the need for a magnum primer with 2400 whereas the older manual did.

The Hornady manual I have(latest) does not show a caveat for any magnum primers with these powders with the 357. What's the deal? I was really surprised to see a magnum primer was recommended with HS-6 more so in that I use that powder with the 230 gr bullet in 45 ACP and have never used a magnum primer or seen it recommended. If it's desired with the 357 to use a magnum primer with it, it seems it would also be necessary with the 45.

 

[jbelder43]

I know with 2400 they say your not suppose to use magnum primers anymore. Not sure about the others.

 

[thomashoward]

I was mulling over some 357 data from an old source(Speer #9) and comparing it to later (Speer#14) manuals and noticed some recommendations of a magnum primer with such powders as 2400, H110, 296 and in some cases, even HS-6. Oddly enough, the #14 manual doesn't show the need for a magnum primer with 2400 whereas the older manual did.

The Hornady manual I have(latest) does not show a caveat for any magnum primers with these powders with the 357. What's the deal? I was really surprised to see a magnum primer was recommended with HS-6 more so in that I use that powder with the 230 gr bullet in 45 ACP and have never used a magnum primer or seen it recommended. If it's desired with the 357 to use a magnum primer with it, it seems it would also be necessary with the 45.

The harder to ignite powders 296/H110 will have more complete combustion with magnum primers Work up your loads if you change primers as there is a difference in pressures.
Safe shooting

 

[ColColt]

I know I've used 2400 years ago and couldn't recall if I'd used magnum primers or not. It does seem that this powder was fairly dirty back then but, I don't know about now. In fact, I wonder if a better powder would give better velocity with a 3 inch barrel...perhaps H110. Most published data is from longer barrels so, it can be hard to interpolate.

 

[Skip Sackett]

In Kalifornia it may not matter which primer you use for H110/W296. Here in Northern Indiana, if you shoot outdoors or hunt November through February, it matters.

Believe it or not, some folks have experienced squibs with H110/W296 with standard primers in temperatures under 30*F.

Besides, Hodgdon says to use them. Use them.

 

[ColColt]

The bottom line to my question is really whether I can get respectful velocity out of a 3 inch barrel with the slower burning powders, such as those mentioned and have complete burning without unburned grains of powder all in the bore, cylinder and under the star.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

The short answer is yes- as long as you use magnum primers for H-110/296.

I know some like magnum primers for 2400, but I haven't personally been able to tell any improvement in performance/uniformity with my guns, and Alliant doesn't recommend them for use with 2400.

All the powder in handgun is burned up normally before the bullet has left the case completely, or at most by the time it hits the forcing cone. With rifles it is burned up within the first 2-3".
All powder will leave at least some residue in your bore. There is an article I have here in an issue of Handloader that goes into detail about this. It was written by John Barsness a few years back.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Proven a long time ago.

The bottom line to my question is really whether I can get respectful velocity out of a 3 inch barrel with the slower burning powders, such as those mentioned and have complete burning without unburned grains of powder all in the bore, cylinder and under the star.

In the older Speer manuals, they have a section for short barreled loads. All of their data shows higher velocity with slower powders even in the snubbies.

No matter what powder you use, load to the upper end of safe data and you will notice much less unburnt powder. Each and every powder has a pressure range where they work best. Usually towards the top end of it.

I need to qualify this a bit. Some data today may not put you in a range where that doesn't happen. I don't want to go all through that topic today but, it is something to consider.

If it were me, I would load the heaviest practical bullet with the slowest practical powder. Just me though.

What caliber?

 

[ColColt]

It's generally been a practice of mine to start in the middle of a recommended load and work toward max but I never use that max. For instance, if a given powder says 6.0 gr as a minimum and 9 gr as a max, I'll start at say 8.0, and if all is well I may go as far as that and stop. I usually stay about 1 grain from max on any given load. So far, I haven't had any unexpected results.

In the older Speer manuals, they have a section for short barreled loads. All of their data shows higher velocity with slower powders even in the snubbies.

The oldest Speer manual I have on hand(No. Nine) circa 1974 doesn't show any data for shorter barrels. The data for the 357 was from a Ruger with 6 inch barrel. I think I have a No. 7 manual around and it may show that.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Speer #8, first printing 1970, page 374:
Says this:
"Jacketed bullet loads for th e.357 Magnum were also tested in both Colt and S&W 2 1/2" barrels. Many shooters have expected the faster burning powders to give better performance than the slower burning powders, but this is not true."

It does go on to also say that there is a price for those higher velocities, muzzle flash.

The following data is different than current data. Do not use this data, it is only posted to show the results of the original testers and not by way of endorsement of this data.

For the Speer 160gr half jacketed soft point, here are a couple of loads for comparison, both these loads are for the 357Mag:
15gr of 2400 with a magnum primer gave them 1199fps from the 2 1/2" barrel. (This load is only .2gr off of their current maximum load for a 158gr Jacketed bullet! It does use a magnum primer though and not the standard one listed in the current data.)
7.5gr of Unique with a standard primer gave them 1062fps from the same gun. This load is BELOW Alliant's current maximum for the same 158gr Jacketed bullet!
(So much for the Speer #8 being hot across the board! )

They also have the same information in the 38spl section. Those loads though are hotter than most of today's +P data though and I will not post them.

Many, many, many folks, shoot 15gr of 2400 with a 158gr LSWC today with little regard for it being a bit hot.


As I stated earlier, these loads are not given by way of endorsement, simply informational in the discussion at hand.

Use current data.

 

[flash60601]

May some of this be as a result of improvements in primer composition and manufacturing?

Winchester markets a primer "For standard and magnum"..


Flash

 

[ColColt]

Speer #8, first printing 1970, page 374:
Says this:
"Jacketed bullet loads for th e.357 Magnum were also tested in both Colt and S&W 2 1/2" barrels. Many shooters have expected the faster burning powders to give better performance than the slower burning powders, but this is not true."

It does go on to also say that there is a price for those higher velocities, muzzle flash.

Hmmm...that's interesting. You would think they would have also indicated that in a later version like the # 9 but, I found no such data. It makes sense about the muzzle flash. Having a 3 inch 357 I don't know if that would be applicable to me or not...3 inch may be on the fringe.

However, they also say in the#14 manual (p. 892) not to use magnum primers with 2400 or VihtaVuori N110 loads or high pressure will result. Yet, in the #9 there is an asterisk beside 2400, H110, 296 and a couple others to use magnum primers per the caveat *Denotes use of CCI #550 Magnum Primer.

2400 is not listed as a recommended powder for 158 LSWC's in either of these manuals.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

2400 is not listed as a recommended powder for 158 LSWC's in either of these manuals.

That's because those manuals are showing loads for their 158 gr swc, which is saft swaged lead, and not apprpriate for use with full power loads like VV 110 and 2400 are designed for.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Flash,
In that one instance, yes, primer composition is a factor. Let me remind you though, that is only in large pistol variety. All the other primers have their magnum counterpart.

Col.,
That 3" barrel is going to give you some light shows brother, no doubt about it. The primer selection is a moot point. It is all powder at that point.

If I were you and thought I wanted to have some thumper 357Mag loads with low flash, here is what I would do: Use SR4756 with older data. It is a single base powder, uses standard primers to ignite, is slower than Unique but faster than 2400 and the day that a 158gr LSWC @ 1100fps from a 3" barrel don't git-r-did, I'm in the wrong place with the wrong gun!

If you are interested in that older data, pm me and I will send you a link to it.

Oh, by the way, the 1100fps 158gr LSWC load; its a 38spl and not a 357Mag!

 

[ColColt]

If I were you and thought I wanted to have some thumper 357Mag loads with low flash, here is what I would do: Use SR4756 with older data. It is a single base powder, uses standard primers to ignite, is slower than Unique but faster than 2400 and the day that a 158gr LSWC @ 1100fps from a 3" barrel don't git-r-did, I'm in the wrong place with the wrong gun!

After reading this I knew that powder sounded familiar. I dug up some old(1973) loading data I had then for the 357 and saw I had used that powder when I had the M28. The load was a 125 gr Sierra JHP and 13 gr of 4756(with CCI 550 primers). That's the only load I had for that powder. I wasn't shooting lead bullets back then.

I don't know where I got that data as it's not shown in my #9 Speer manual-maybe from the #8 that I can't find. I don't think Hornady even had a manual with pistol loads back then.