Mailing Model 1891

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I am thinking of selling my S&W Model 1891, will list it here first (fair condition)

the question I have is since this is pre 1898 and therefore not a gun as far as BATF is concerned can I just mailing it via the Post Office, or Fedex or does it have to be sent next day air via Fedex like a regular gun?

I would hope I could just say it is an antique when mailing something like that

 

[opoefc]

Antique guns can be mailed via USPS, under BATF rules. I use priority mail, insured, unless the item is a 5 figure value, then I use Registered mail, insured. Ed.

 

[Camster]

Being in Ma.,being chambered in a current caliber,I think that it has to be treated the same as a modern firearm.Your state laws or those of the recipient,will apply.Here in NY,a cartridge gun is still a gun,and I think that would be the case in Mass,which is even more strict than my locale.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I think you are correct on the cartridge gun, even if it is an obsolete caliber it is considered modern,

I wonder if I could just mail it from New Hampshire, or I have to pay a 01 dealer here to mail it, at least I wouldn't have to pay for the transfer.

I would have to look at the cost of gas unless I was driving to NH anyway.

I will probably treat the 1891 and the Baby Russian like modern guns.

 

[DWalt]

USPS regulations are vague and open to various interpretations. However, most believe the intent of the regulations is that individuals (as opposed to FFL holders) cannot legally ship any cartridge-firing handgun (antique or modern) via USPS. Of course you can try it and maybe not get caught.

 

[glowe]

Just go to your local post office and ask the Postmaster if it is legal to ship an antique revolver? That is the only answer you can take to the bank. You may want to pay attention to a few state laws out there and not sell to buyers in NY, MA, and CA just to be safe. Besides, I live in MI and would be happy to buy another 1891 at the right price, plus you would have no problem shipping it here with my C&R - FFL.

 

[steelslaver]

Na, that won't work very well. I am a custom knife builder and have had similar discussions. Postmasters have nicked sending knives through the mail and that is totally incorrect. They are not legal scholars or lawyers for sure.

If he should say OK you MIGHT have some legal back up in case of a problem though.

Years ago, sometime after my father passed my dear departed mother sent me a revolver in the mail. Loaded. When I received it I called he up and told her it was a bad no no. She laughed.

 

[Nframecollector]

I have hade C & R handguns sent to my local post office. One company I deal with only uses the USPS for handguns.

 

[DWalt]

Theoretically, long guns are legal for anyone to ship via USPS. However, I will guarantee that if you ask anyone at the post office about that, they will tell you it is not allowed. And you basically have no recourse, other than to tell them it's something else if they ask - such as "Machine Parts". USPS personnel almost to a man have very little knowledge about their own regulations, and will get very huffy if you suggest they look something up.

 

[1900colt]

It's very easy to find the info you need.
It is available on usps.com

Policies, Procedures, and Forms Updates

 

[rsl]

Shipping

I have mailed USPS lots of pre-1899 cart. and muzzloaders and have had no problems...... Just insure for value in case it gets stolen.. I do make sure who I send them to that they are over 21 years old.. You don't want some kid shooting up the Hood... A simple copy of their Drivers license does the trick... I also put a disclamer in my Gunbroker listings that goes like this. "Buyer assumes any and all responsibility for use of this firearm" CYA.. Good luck..

 

[DWalt]

Muzzle loaders are OK, but unless you have a C&R license, you can't legally send antique cartridge handguns via USPS unless they are chambered in an unobtainable cartridge. That's still the case.

You can always just not declare what you are sending, but that could get you into deep problems if it's caught by a postal inspector. I don't know if that constitutes a felony, but at a minimum the gun will be confiscated.

Note also that postmasters are specifically forbidden to provide opinions about the legal interpretation and applicability of postal regulations concerning gun shipment. I once attempted to ask a local postmaster about shipping guns, and his reply was something like "you can't do it." Expect no guidance or assistance whatsoever from them. They will not stick their necks out one millimeter.

 

[Dutchman]

There is a lot of wrong information in this thread....

Domestic Mail Manual:
DMM 601 Mailability

The gist is here:

h. Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A cartridge handgun, even mfg before 1899, cannot be mailed. "Fixed ammunition" means a cartridge.

12.3 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms

Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of firearms. Further advice and ATF contact information is available at http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/.

 

[deadin]

You need to read the entire regulation and parse the sentences.

The underlined "OR" indicates an alternate definition follows that exists in place of what comes before the "OR". Note that the statement within the parenthesis ("including those with...") doesn't limit the definition of "any firearm", but adds clarification.
Also, the sentences following #'s 1 & 2 apply only to replicas.

Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof);OR any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:
1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

 

[DWalt]

"Also, the sentences following #'s 1 & 2 apply only to replicas"

ABSOLUTELY not so. It clearly applies to both original antiques and replicas. The statements 1&2 simply clarify the nature of the replica. Therefore, unless you have some sort of FFL, you cannot legally use USPS to send either original antiques or replica handguns if they are chambered in any caliber for which fixed ammunition is available.

 

[deadin]

What part of "or any replica thereof, if such replica:".....
applies to an original pre-1899?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

As strict as Mass gun laws are, antiques are still treated as non-firearms. Even cartridge guns. And it has nothing to do with obsolete cartridges. I attended a Mass Gun Law clinic recently and that was one of the surprising things I found out. However, just to be difficult, Mass defines an antique as having been made before 1898, whereas the Federal Government defines an antique as having been made before 1899. This of course bears on when the gun was actually made, not its Model name. If you want it to be an antique here, you have to know it was actually manufactured before 1898.

I have no opinion about how to ship an antique.

 

[steelslaver]

I would not direct ship any cartridge gun in the mail simply because of the way the law might be interpreted. You might well be right, but, may have to spend a lot of money on a lawyer to convince a judge or judges you were correct. Like: 2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. If I can find it on the internet now days you could say thats an ordinary channel of commercial trade. All you need is one zealot to see it the wrong way and its becomes a big problem. Who needs gun legal problems? Saving some on the shipping is like betting $10 against $10,000 and only being able to win the $10. Even if the odds are in your favor its a poor bet.

Its like saying a fired cartridge case is not ammunition. I believe you as would most people with a clue and real understanding of firearms, but would you want to try your luck in many locations in some of the states???

 

[DWalt]

I absolutely agree 100%. The postal statute, at least to me, is extremely clear. If you don't have a FFL (or meet one of the other exceptions), you cannot legally send any cartridge handgun (modern or antique) via USPS. So do you feel lucky?

 

[glowe]

I would not direct ship any cartridge gun in the mail simply because of the way the law might be interpreted.

One would think that the BATF would be the final word on classifying antique firearms, but there is certainly some conflict with USPS statements.

That is one reason why I got my C&R FFL. USPS does not seem to make any reference to what type of FFL is acceptable and only states "dealer" in all references I can find. Some will say that a C&R license is not sufficient to ship with the USPS, but using my FFL3 and USPS Form 1508, I have successfully sent antique firearms without worry or problems with USPS.

USPS Statement: unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are generally permitted, as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.2.

Exhibit 432.1 Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are acceptable for mailing.

601.11.2 Nonmailability
Except as provided in 11.3, all cigarettes (including roll-your-own tobacco) and smokeless tobacco are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried through the Postal Service mailstream. Nonmailable cigarettes and smokeless tobacco deposited in the mail are subject to seizure and forfeiture.

Interesting that the latter reference has nothing to do with firearms.