Major Epiphany At The Range Yesterday. UPDATE Bought The M&P

[Smoke]

Just eliminating the presence of a manual safety and/or a decocker doesn't prevent someone from using a technique that's potentially disadvantageous under the circumstances, meaning to only fire a "predetermined" number of rounds, or to be in a rush to reholster before the actual threat (or threat) has been addressed.

First let me say again this was my first time through this type of course and I'm sure I did horribly but the instructor said I did OK. I got al the hits I was supposed to get and I didn't hit the stuff I wasn't supposed to hit. I even got extra points for saying that I didn't have a valid shot at one point and moving to the next station where I did and shooting from there.

I didn't try to reholster until the course was over and I engaged every target until it was neutralized.

I didn't default to two shots except for the steel targets where they wanted two solid hits before you moved on.

The only thing that brain locked me was the decocker and it shook me up enough that I don't want to carry a gun with a decocker like that ever again.

 

[BAM-BAM]

The only thing that brain locked me was the decocker and it shook me up enough that I don't want to carry a gun with a decocker like that ever again.

OK .. you need to feel confident in what you carry ..... so.....God speed and be safe!!!!

 

[BE Mike]

First let me say again this was my first time through this type of course and I'm sure I did horribly but the instructor said I did OK. I got al the hits I was supposed to get and I didn't hit the stuff I wasn't supposed to hit. I even got extra points for saying that I didn't have a valid shot at one point and moving to the next station where I did and shooting from there.

I didn't try to reholster until the course was over and I engaged every target until it was neutralized.

I didn't default to two shots except for the steel targets where they wanted two solid hits before you moved on.

The only thing that brain locked me was the decocker and it shook me up enough that I don't want to carry a gun with a decocker like that ever again.

I agree that the KISS principle is best. All courses should be fired and the threats eliminated before holstering.

 

[Fastbolt]

... but the instructor said I did OK. I got al the hits I was supposed to get and I didn't hit the stuff I wasn't supposed to hit. I even got extra points for saying that I didn't have a valid shot at one point and moving to the next station where I did and shooting from there.

Those are important points.

...
The only thing that brain locked me was the decocker and it shook me up enough that I don't want to carry a gun with a decocker like that ever again.

Training to operate the decocker requires some dedicated effort. No surprise some agencies have a familiarization training process when it involves a pistol equipped with a decocking feature.

Training to consistently manipulate the decocking mechanism, especially if it involves manually raising the lever (like some 3rd gen's and Beretta's), requires some dedicated attention.

This can be further complicated depending on the required (policy) training methods, meaning either carrying a weapon On-Safe (safely lever down) or Ready-to-Fire (decocked, but off safe).

The 2-step manipulation for decocking, and yet having the weapon ready-for-fire, has that 'extra step' of raising the lever which isn't needed in weapons that have designs which are spring-loaded (SIG, some Beretta's, 3rd gen option of spring-loaded/decock-only, etc).

Obviously, it's not the same sort of potential problem when it involves guns which don't have hammers to be decocked (meaning some DAO/DAO-ish striker-fired). ')

You ought to train folks who carry the Walther 99 series guns (and licensed SW99 models) that are striker-fired, but have their original Anti-Stress sear design that is DA/SA-ish, but with a decocker mechanism ... meaning the button on top of the slide ... that "decocks" the striker to DA mode.

Training 1911 users on both depressing the safety lock (actual name for the "thumb safety") to fire the weapon, and returning it to the On-Safe position when an intentional shot isn't desired, can also be a bit labor intensive for both instructors and students.

I'll certainly grant that it took some thousands of repetitions, under a lot of different conditions, for my thumb to develop that automatic "raise the lever after decocking" so it happened unconsciously under the desired conditions. (We carried 3rd gen's decocked/ready-to-fire, although allowed folks coming from other agencies who were trained to carry on-safe to continue to utilize their ingrained trained, if they desired).

My thumb still has a slight twitch to prepare to raise the safety lever when decocking my 3rd gen's that have the spring-loaded, decock-only options. I've been using those 3rd gen's equipped with the decock-only option since about '98, but have been running standard 3rd gen decockers since '90, so you can imagine the opportunity for the 2-step manipulation to have become ingrained.

One of my issued 6906's endured what I eventually estimated to have been upwards of 45,000+ rounds fired before I retired it from service, and I carried and used a couple other 6906's, as well as a couple of issued 5903's which saw some thousands of rounds ... and then there were my other personally-owned 3rd gen's without spring-loaded decockers.

My thumbs have decock-twitch (lower/raise levers) virtually hard-wired into them. (And I've been shooting 1911's for much longer. )

Enjoy the M&P 9. Good gun.

 

[Smoke]

First I want to clarify the draw, fire 2 shots , decock and reholster thing.
For what ever reason our qualification standard is 30 shots in groups of 2from concealment. So the instructor blows the whistle, we draw, fire 2 shots, I decock (most of the other guys carry Glunks or XDs) and reholster.

Decocking the gun is awkward for me even after a year but I can manage it on a square range. Before yesterday I never tried doing it under actual shoot and move conditions and I couldn't do it right.

I really like my 6906 I've been training with it for a year and owned it for several years before that but this thing yesterday really shook me up to the point I really don't know if I'm ever going to be comfortable with that gun again.

 

[Rastoff]

At this point I assume there's something wrong with the magazine so I drop it, load another and go to chamber a round and realize I decocked my weapon while moving to the first cover.

This is the problem I have with all slide mounted safety/decockers. I'll bet you accidentally moved the lever down while racking the slide.

I completely agree that this is something that could be, and was for you, a problem in a tense situation. Good on you that you figured it out and finished the course. I've seen other people completely freeze and not be able to get their guns going again.

Next payday I'm buying an M&P 9mm. from this point forward the only controls I want on my carry gun are the trigger and the magazine release

Even though I don't like the decocker/safety on the slide, there's no reason to spend any money on a new gun. A few dollars on training/ammo would solve the issue and save you money in the long run. The M&P is wildly different and you'll have to spend additional money on ammo to come up to the same proficiency you have with the 6906.

Unless of course, you just want another gun.

Another variation of this sort of training problem that's sometimes been lamented by firearm instructors has been shooters who successfully address an identified threat, but then are seemingly in a "race" to get their weapons reholstered...

I wish more instructors would come to this understanding.

I know Smoke didn't have a holstering problem, but this is still a good place to discuss it.

No one ever won a gun fight by reholstering. Reholstering should be done slowly, reluctantly. You were just in a gun fight. You don't know if there are more bad guys or not. You don't want your concealment garment to get in the way. Rushing the reholster process is only bad. It might look cool in the movies, but doesn't get you anything in real life.

 

[growr]

Get the M&P and continue to use your 6906!!!

Then you are proficient with both and not have to choose............

Randy

 

[Llando88]

Just wanted to say thanks, Smoke, for posting this topic.

Quite a lot of good info here, and as a gun noob, I appreciate all the different points of view.

 

[Oldherkpilot]

I have been reading a book by Michael Seeklander called "Your Defensive Handgun Training Program." It is not about shooting as much as training to defend yourself. He specifically incorporates training drills to prevent unhealthy routines in your range work. I have been amazed at how some innocuous habit patterns lead straight to life-threatening conditions if we don't train deliberately.
I will not try to talk you out of changing guns, but strongly suggest you look into the Seeklander book or another reputable author/shooter to establish a sound training program. I hope your instructor is evaluating his training program as it appears to have some leaks. We had a saying in the Air Force--"Train the way you fight or die the way you train." I guess it applies to self-defense, too.

 

[Fastbolt]

Okay, a sidebar ... or side-track, if Smoke doesn't mind ...

...
No one ever won a gun fight by reholstering.
...
You were just in a gun fight. You don't know if there are more bad guys or not.
...
You don't want your concealment garment to get in the way.
...
Rushing the reholster process is only bad. It might look cool in the movies, but doesn't get you anything in real life.

Some prudent comments to consider.

I typically tell cops that they ought to be able to holster their handgun when they choose to do so, or when they must do so (in order to perform some other action with the gun hand). The conditions and their determinations of what will be sufficient tactical actions will be based on the conditions ... and their training must be up to the task.

This can become even more difficult when you consider that situations that may occur which will not enable many cops to have both hands available to reholster their weapon.

Or, be able to look down to the holster while holstering their weapon.

Having only 1 hand free to reholster, perhaps while actively needing the hand, can become a nasty surprise if someone isn't prepared for that situation.

When I say "holster" I mean "reholster", as it's the same action being done. However, and this is an important however, the circumstances may create different problems.

After all, carefully holstering a handgun in front of your safe, in good light, at your convenience and with your full attention ... is one thing. Doing it after a quart of adrenalin has been dumped in your system is another. As is doing it in new and different surroundings, probably in a rush and maybe a certain amount of uncertainty in your hands.

This is where safety must be kept in mind. Nobody wants an unintentional discharge caused by some errant bit of garment (corner of jacket, drawstring, etc) getting caught in the mouth of the holster and trigger guard.

Being able to sweep a retention strap away from the trigger guard (index finger's already pushing away from the trigger guard, right?) so it doesn't get caught in the trigger guard is also a necessary precaution.

That's one thing that's usually more easily done by cops - who handle their weapons every day - than a significant number of private citizen/CCW licensees I've observed over the years. Some private citizens may have a LOT more interest in shooting ... but not so much in the daily handling of their weapons when it comes to holstering & reholstering. (This is a different topic than proficiency in speed of drawing, BTW, and for another thread. )

Requiring cops to periodically qualify with their carry methods (duty & off-duty) can be a good time to look for manipulation problems or bad habits, too. Private citizens can lack this sort of opportunity to periodically have a trained set of eyes observe them in their holstering, use & maintenance of their holsters, their drawing & presentation.

But hey, lots of folks seem to think they have an innate and instinctual ability to use tools, physically defend themselves, drive motor vehicles ... and safely & effectively handle and shoot firearms.

It can be somewhat illuminating, and not a little daunting, to watch some folks try to holster their handguns while someone else is watching them, even when there isn't a time limit or whistle. Now, imagine what it might be like after having been shot at, present where shots have been fired, or just one of those "almost fired" situations that may come along.

Some proper training in using a good quality holster ... appropriate to the specific handgun and the user's actual needs ... can really help.

Just my thoughts, anyway.

 

[moosedog]

A decocker is just another thing you have to worry about when under stress. I would never carry a gun with a decocker.

 

[Smoke]

Even though I don't like the decocker/safety on the slide, there's no reason to spend any money on a new gun. A few dollars on training/ammo would solve the issue and save you money in the long run. The M&P is wildly different and you'll have to spend additional money on ammo to come up to the same proficiency you have with the 6906.

I've actually been considering this move for a while Saturday just sealed it.

Last range trip I took my M&P (recent purchase) Shield and got the best qual score I ever got. The M&P just seems to fit me and I don't anticipate much of a curve.

I also have the (potential) advantage of having a full size handgun and a subcompact handgun that are identical in all respects except for size, no learning curve if circumstances dictate a switch

Unless of course, you just want another gun.

I want the M&P but I really feel like I'm purchasing it for a valid reason rather than for the Hell of it.

I wish more instructors would come to this understanding.

I know Smoke didn't have a holstering problem, but this is still a good place to discuss it.

No one ever won a gun fight by reholstering. Reholstering should be done slowly, reluctantly. You were just in a gun fight. You don't know if there are more bad guys or not. You don't want your concealment garment to get in the way. Rushing the reholster process is only bad. It might look cool in the movies, but doesn't get you anything in real life.

My instructors are very good about stressing "Quick to draw/ Slow to reholster"

 

[Smoke]

My approach to carrying a gun has always been to do everything I can to simplify the process and cut the number of things I have to do under duress to the bare minimum.

I chose a gun with a decocker over a gun with a manual safety for simplicity. If I ever had to draw my gun I didn't want to have to do anything to get the gun ready before I shot.

I never thought decocking afterwards would be that much of a problem until I did it without realizing it in the middle of a "fight".

This is the problem I have with all slide mounted safety/decockers. I'll bet you accidentally moved the lever down while racking the slide.

I know Rastoff mentioned he thinks I did it racking the slide to clear the malfunction but I didn't rack the slide until the gun initially failed to fire.

Either way if I ever do that in a fight I'm very likely going to die. God Forbid I should be trying to reduce a malfunction and add to my problems by flipping the safety on.

Let me tell you what I didn't have a problem with through out the entire course of fire, keeping my finger off the trigger until my sights were on the target.

If I have to get in a gunfight with someone who (by definition) is trying to kill me I want the simplest gun I can have.

 

[Derosa]

What a wonderful discussion. Thank you, all.

 

[Smoke]

And yes, new routines can be planted upon a blank paper, but I can assure you it takes a whole lot more to unndo a habit, and replace it with a new habit, than it was to put it there in the first place.

As I mentioned in the OP there was actually a point during the course where my brain lock over whether or not to decock actually stopped me in my tracks.

In fact I've been mulling this change over for a while and the thing that got me started thinking about it was something that happened one of the first times I cleaned and reassembled my M&P Shield.

I reassembled the gun , inserted a full magazine,, dropped the slide and froze because my muscle memory was telling me to drop a decocker that my eyes kept telling me wasn't there.

I started thinking about switching my 6906 for an M&P 9mm then and there

 

[Fastbolt]

If you've enjoyed a fast and comfortable shooter break-in with the Shield, it makes sense to take advantage of the similar design in a larger size.

Same reasoning I used to justify using both 6 & 5-shot revolvers for many years.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

A decocker is just another thing you have to worry about when under stress. I would never carry a gun with a decocker.

Me niether, nor a manual safety.

No stress required. At a range, it's common to see people try to shoot their gun with the safety engaged, including experienced shooters

 

[Llando88]

Me niether, nor a manual safety.

No stress required. At a range, it's common to see people try to shoot their gun with the safety engaged, including experienced shooters

As a new shooter last year, this specific thing (draw, 'click', oh, dang it, safety is engaged) happened to me twice at the range on a couple pistols.

Further research and six months of shooting rental pistols convinced me when the time came to buy my FS9, I opted to forego the manual safety.

I'm convinced for me it was the right decision; one less thing to worry about under stress.

 

[BE Mike]

As I mentioned in the OP there was actually a point during the course where my brain lock over whether or not to decock actually stopped me in my tracks.

In fact I've been mulling this change over for a while and the thing that got me started thinking about it was something that happened one of the first times I cleaned and reassembled my M&P Shield.

I reassembled the gun , inserted a full magazine,, dropped the slide and froze because my muscle memory was telling me to drop a decocker that my eyes kept telling me wasn't there.

I started thinking about switching my 6906 for an M&P 9mm then and there

Your first thoughts (switching to a pistol you can draw and shoot like a double-action revolver) were the right ones. No need to second guess yourself. You are lucky, some people never realize that they need to do something different. There is a reason that the newer generation of pistols are designed the way they are. There is no reason to fumble with a switch that isn't needed. I really like my Beretta 92 FS, but it wouldn't be my choice to carry it when my life depends upon it. Now my Beretta 96D (double action only)...that's a different story.

 

[H Richard]

Always been one of the big advantages of "revolvers". No safety, no decocker, just pull ans shoot. Double action firm enough that it is very difficult to ever get a "negligent discharge", and single action light enough for a longer range shot. Only drawback in capacity.