Major Epiphany At The Range Yesterday. UPDATE Bought The M&P

[Smoke]

I went to a training class yesterday and part of what we did was a Hogan's Alley set up.

We started at point A and moved through the range identifying and engaging various targets, some were set up in such a way that you had to be careful not to hit a "non combatant" when you shot at the "threat".

So anyway I started the course, fired at the first two targets and moved to the first "cover". When I go to the first cover I had 2 more targets to engage so I aimed at the first squeezed my trigger and nothing happened.

So I did immediate action , Tap, Rack , Roll and tried to fire again nothing happened.

At this point I assume there's something wrong with the magazine so I drop it, load another and go to chamber a round and realize I decocked my weapon while moving to the first cover.

I've spent a year on this range building a muscle memory of draw fire 2 shots, decock and reholster. Even after I realized what happened I spent the rest of the course with my mind and my muscle memory fighting for control of that decocker.

Next payday I'm buying an M&P 9mm. from this point forward the only controls I want on my carry gun are the trigger and the magazine release

 

[Muss Muggins]

So, your decocker also functions as a safety which must be released after decocking in order to fire? If you don't mind, what are you carrying?

 

[Smoke]

So, your decocker also functions as a safety which must be released after decocking in order to fire? If you don't mind, what are you carrying?

Third generation S&W 6906 9mm (which is on the injured reserve list at the moment)

 

[Smoke]

In case any one is wondering, I am aware that I just posted a thread about how I was done rotating carry guns and I was going to stick with my 6906.

This incident changed my perspective. I've always said if I'm ever in a real gunfight the fewer decisions I have to make the better off I'll be this is just a refinement of that.

 

[growr]

Don't blame the gun for a problem you induced in your training.

The 6904 is a fabulous carry gun....when I use mine if I am going to holster the gun after firing, I always decock and then release so that the next round is DA.... and then holster it.

Just how I was taught any DA/SA autoloaders including S&W's

I know the moment my hand touches the gun what i need to do to make it run...

Randy

 

[Smoke]

Don't blame the gun for a problem you induced in your training.

I'm not. I spoke to the trainer that I work with (and who gains nothing if I buy another gun) about this issue and that's one of the things I asked "Am I using a training issue as an excuse to buy a new gun?" He said he didn't think so and that I had voiced a legitimate concern.

As stated above, if I ever have to use a gun in self defense I want as few variables to deal with as I can have. I don't care how that habit got there, there only has to be one repeat to get me killed

I know the moment my hand touches the gun what i need to do to make it run...

Until you don't

 

[scooter123]

I never have seen the logic of incorporating both a decocker and a safety into one mechanism. Yeah, it will slow down someone who manages a "take away" but that isn't as common as some would believe. IMO it's more "lawyer proofing" and in invitation to lose a gun fight.

This is why I prefer my Sig Sauer's. You get the increase in assurance against a ND provided by a 10 lbs. DA trigger but don't have to remember to switch off some safety if there is a need to fire.

 

[Ross3914]

I've spent a year on this range building a muscle memory of draw fire 2 shots, decock and reholster.

You need to get away from that kind of training. There's been people that have been in shootouts and ended up drawing, firing two shots, reholstering, and finding out they were still in a gunfight. They had trained the same way. Draw, fire two rounds, reholster.

You fight the same way you train. You trained in a couple of problems. You figured out you had done so, and now you're moving to correct that.

I think your course of action with the M&P is a vaild one, but you need to reevaluate some of the other aspects of your training. The "fire two rounds and reholster" thing needs to go IMO, but I'm no expert.

Training is the place to make the mistakes, correct them, and continue to make more mistakes and continue to improve. That's what you're doing. WAY too many people just stagnate and don't figure out they have a training deficiency until it's too late.

 

[RobzGuns]

I've spent a year on this range building a muscle memory of draw fire 2 shots, decock and reholster. Even after I realized what happened I spent the rest of the course with my mind and my muscle memory fighting for control of that decocker.

Statistics (from other activities) say it only takes about 20 repetitions to build a habit (replace an old habit). This may be where your Instructor's comment about 'using this as an excuse to get anther pistol' came from.

As you stated, You've simply built a habit of firing Two Shots decocking and holstering. If you truly like your 6906 as a carry piece, all you need do is build a NEW habit (muscle memory). Having a habit of Decocking before Holstering is good... But You simply need to Ditch the habit of Decocking after the 2nd shot. That's a Bad habit.

Build a new habit by mixing up how many rounds you fire (never just 2), so you ONLY decock when holstering.

IE: 2 Shots, Pause, 3 Shots, Pause, 5 Shots, pause, reload, THEN only decock before holstering.

 

[M3Stuart]

I don't like decockers either. For example; I traded a Beretta 92FS for a CZ75 B. Not only did I lose the decocker, I also got a fantastic out-of-the-box trigger.

 

[TucsonMTB]

Next payday I'm buying an M&P 9mm. from this point forward the only controls I want on my carry gun are the trigger and the magazine release

I believe that is a good plan, sir.

Fortunately, I have never had the experience, but I understand that most people become somewhat impaired during a real self defense encounter.

Admittedly, it is hard to believe and the odds are I will never find out, but I do not want to take that chance either.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Smoke's concept is a widespread one, and it would seem that he has reach the best decision for HIM .

Some other occasion , I'll probably riff about de-cocking, on safeing, training routines, etc , but don't feel like it now, and thgat's not overly relevent to Smoke's present situation.

And yes, new routines can be planted upon a blank paper, but I can assure you it takes a whole lot more to unndo a habit, and replace it with a new habit, than it was to put it there in the first place.

 

[4011]

Local PD taught us to draw fire two and holster. Later there were two incidents in the US where officers were killed are injured because they drew fired and reholstered. We quickly retrained to draw fire and cover until you were sure you had no threat.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I decocked my weapon while moving to the first cover.

I've spent a year on this range building a muscle memory of draw fire 2 shots, decock and reholster.

Don't take this the wrong way......... but why????????

Train to draw ,fire 2, decock and reholster......... except in the opening credits of "Gunsmoke" can't see that as a reasonable scenario........

Draw, fire for effect, move; assess the situation ....... from cover if possible ...... repeat steps 2,3,4 as necessary.

 

[Smoke]

You need to get away from that kind of training. There's been people that have been in shootouts and ended up drawing, firing two shots, reholstering, and finding out they were still in a gunfight. They had trained the same way. Draw, fire two rounds, reholster.

You fight the same way you train. You trained in a couple of problems. You figured out you had done so, and now you're moving to correct that.

The "fire two rounds and reholster" thing needs to go IMO, but I'm no expert.

Oddly enough I never once tried to reholster the gun I just kept trying to decock the weapon.

I also have issues manipulating the decocker it just feel awkward in my hand

 

[Smoke]

Don't take this the wrong way......... but why????????

Train to draw ,fire 2 decock and reholster......... except in the opening credits of "Gunsmoke" can't see that as a reasonable scenario........

Draw, fire for effect, move; assess the situation ....... from cover if possible ...... repeat steps 2,3,4 as necessary.

Because we were training for the qualification test.

I said it above but I never once tried to reholster until I was done with the course. I also never stopped after two shots.

I engaged the targets until they either went down or I met the standard, a couple of the steel targets weren't going to go down so we were instructed to engage until till we got two solid hits ( Bong, Bong). but every time I did stop shooting I kept trying to decock that gun, at one point I stopped cold in the middle of the course while my brain locked over it.

I may never ever be in a real gunfight but if I ever am and I do what I did yesterday God Himself will likely have to intervene to keep me alive.

If I can take that variable out of the equation by getting a different tool for the job then I'm going to do it

 

[BAM-BAM]

happened[/I].


I've spent a year on this range building a muscle memory of draw fire 2 shots, decock and reholster.

This is what I was asking about........either with or without the reholstering..... you were intentionally teaching yourself "muscle memory" to do the same thing........ no matter what!

I didn't understand ....... why you would want to build that particular "muscle memory"..... as (to me & I could be dense LOL) it doesn't seem to have a real world application.

What's the old expression ......."The best plan falls apart once you engage/have first contact with the enemy!"


Edit; I carry a 3913 or 6906 more often than not....... I've "trained" to decock and immediately flip it back off...... once the threat has ended/assessed....... but I don't understand decocking in a Hogan's Alley; multiple active shooter scenario...... which is what you were doing..... finger off the trigger yes... decock no.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I am not trying to be critical or an __________ ; just an exchange of ideas.

One other thing you said......"we were training for the qualification test"

That kind of training makes the Instructor ( or school teacher) look good when everyone gets a good score......... but it doesn't train you to think on your feet.....in all likelihood real life isn't on "the test"

If you like your 6906 ...... great guns..... just train yourself not to leave the decocker down

God speed; go slow as fast as you can, use cover and be safe!!!!

 

[Fastbolt]

...
I've spent a year on this range building a muscle memory of draw fire 2 shots, decock and reholster. Even after I realized what happened I spent the rest of the course with my mind and my muscle memory fighting for control of that decocker. ...

An eye-opener when it happens to you, isn't it?

I'd offer that this was more of a user-ingrained technique issue than an actual equipment issue.

It's not been all that uncommon over the years to hear of LE FTU's (firearm training unit) encountering the same sort of issue with some older firearms training that emphasized a specific technique - (double tap, decock & reholster) - only to have it become apparent that the real world may not provide conveniently spaced single threat targets that readily respond to niftily executed "double taps".

Another variation of this sort of training problem that's sometimes been lamented by firearm instructors has been shooters who successfully address an identified threat, but then are seemingly in a "race" to get their weapons reholstered before the next expected part of some drill ... or before they've both confirmed the identified threat is actually "over", and/or they've scanned for additional threats. (Trigger discipline/safety by the student is another can of worms when area threat scans are involved. )

The tendency to fire an "automatic", or predetermined, number of rounds can be hard to break once it's become ingrained, but different training regimens and drills have been developed to address it over the years.

Just eliminating the presence of a manual safety and/or a decocker doesn't prevent someone from using a technique that's potentially disadvantageous under the circumstances, meaning to only fire a "predetermined" number of rounds, or to be in a rush to reholster before the actual threat (or threat) has been addressed.

 

[Smoke]

Statistics (from other activities) say it only takes about 20 repetitions to build a habit (replace an old habit). This may be where your Instructor's comment about 'using this as an excuse to get anther pistol' came from.

Go back and read my post the instructor never said that I did.

He said I had a legitimate point and that he didn't think I was making excuses