Marines Going Back to Colt 1911 for Sidearm

[mkk41]

Wow... lots of misinformation here.

Unless something drastic has changed, the Military is forbidden from using hollow points. It's all FMJ.

Unless they are issuing JHP for practice, which would make zero sense

And here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899
The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible.

The ratification shall be deposited at The Hague.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The United States never signed!

 

[UncleEd]

mkk41,

Yup, the U.S. never signed but as the Hague treaty states, it's only in force among signers of the treaty even if the U.S. did sign. And I believe that the lawyers decided terrorists ain't soldiers so to heck with them.

As I understand it, the use of FMJ has a much to do with the reliability issue in weapons and the weapons of 50 years or more ago simply operated better with FMJ because the hollowpoints did tend to jam on the ramps, feed systems of the day.

The old 1911s certainly operated more consistently with FMJ
than hollow points and this was true for most factory stock pistols right up through the 1960s or even into the '70s.

 

[mkk41]

Right , but we still have the court of public opinion and political correctness to deal with.

There was a big flap some years ago after someone blabbed to a reporter that US Marine snipers were using 'hollow points' on enemy combatants. The USGI Lake City M-852 , 7.62mm 'match' round did use the Sierra 168gr Matchking Hollow Point. (same round as the commercial Federal 168gr Gold Medal Match) But the JAG decided that after extensive and expensive testing that the bullets did NOT expand on human targets , but that the thick hard jacket and hard lead core acted exactly like a standard FMJ.

 

[mamasfatty]

im surprised the US military would issue a 100 year old design to our troops. 1911,s are fine guns but they are not near as reliable as current semi auto pistols. limiting yourself to 7 rounds seems like a mistake to me.send our marines out with the best hi cap polimer side arm available.....

 

[peyton]

I will have to say that being deployed for seven years in Iraq /Afghanistan that I have seen a bunch of Berretta's carried. Now I have left the FOB's and traveled with the soldiers "at the pointy end of the spear" and few of those soldiers were carrying any pistol. Heck, they relied on the M-4 rifle, and the machine guns. Now on the FOB "In the rear with the gear" a lot more soldiers have M-9's and M16A2's. I use the phrase "Carried a lot, shot a little" and in deplorable condition, dirty and I fear unusable if the Taliban jumped penetrated the fence!!

 

[mkk41]

im surprised the US military would issue a 100 year old design to our troops.

Well , they still use the basic M2 Browning .50cal machine gun , and it's 80yrs old!

And the basic action of the M-16 is 50 already.

 

[7tenz]

I wonder what the Navy Seals use?

 

[Jlduke]

Keep in mind the military will be shooting Ball ammo, specifically FMJ ball nosed ammo. The 1911 had a sterling reputation for reliable operation until after WWII when in private hands they were "acurized" and fed semi wad cutters and hollowpoints. I expect that Colt will do some ammo specific design tweeks to the feed ramps on the Marine re-issue and also build them on the "loose" side. End result of doing that is they will function without flaw for many many thousands of rounds.

Another plus for the 1911 is the simplicity of the design, especially if the new guns are a series 70. This makes them VERY easy to service and the parts availability is better than any other handgun on the market.

Bottomline, IMO it's an excellent choice. Frankly I've never understood the move to 9mm, it's just dumb. The 9mm really need the "advantage" of a good modern hollowpoint before it becomes effective. With our military carrying only FMJ it's just good sense to carry something with the biggest heaviest bullet you can shoot. Of course I've always questioned the move to the 223, it's a freaking 22 CALIBER for crying out loud and I don't think it's wise to have our troops equipped with squirrel guns. Glad to see the Marines are also dusting off a few M-14's, our troops are sorely in need of a caliber that can "reach out and touch someone".

I think it's a bit ridiculous to say that moving to 9mm is "dumb". The 9mm is used by military and police THE WORLD OVER and has been proven time and again to be an effective round. Whether it's better than the .45 is debatable depending on who you're talking to. I've heard arguments for both and I own and like both.

Also, the M16/M4 is hardly a "squirrel gun". When the rifle was introduced in Vietnam the NVA called the 5.56 an inhumane round because of the damage round does. And yes, it will most certainly "reach out". In fact, to this day the AR platform has yet to be suitably outdone by anything out there. The problem with the bigger heavier rounds is that it is tough to fire fast when there is too much recoil, not to mention lower capacities coupled with greater weight.

 

[PDL]

Getting back to the original discusion on the 1911. I think the only thing that should be done to improve it is a double stack mag.

I've got double stacks in .45 and they are not too bulky. Although for female hands they might be.

I carried a .45 every day on duty for the 5+ years I was in. Even when they were old they shot as well as the shooter could.

I think that lot of guys never saw a pistol till the service. It seemed like they based their accuracy expectations on the old cowboy flicks. You know, just pick up the gun and point it in the right direction.

I agree the only other thing I'd change was to emphasize training and practice.

 

[nipster]

Getting back to the original discusion on the 1911. I think the only thing that should be done to improve it is a double stack mag.

I've got double stacks in .45 and they are not too bulky. Although for female hands they might be.

I carried a .45 every day on duty for the 5+ years I was in. Even when they were old they shot as well as the shooter could.

I think that lot of guys never saw a pistol till the service. It seemed like they based their accuracy expectations on the old cowboy flicks. You know, just pick up the gun and point it in the right direction.

I agree the only other thing I'd change was to emphasize training and practice.

A browning hi-power design in .45 would be good. No silly grip safety, double stack mag, etc, etc

I know they made BHP in 40 S&W, not sure about 45

 

[UncleEd]

I believe the Marine contract specs called for a grip safety.

Are you calling Marines silly, Mr. Nipster?

Well, mister, are the Marines silly?

 

[6mmman]

The Marines are not silly. They are getting back what they need in combat. The 1911 pistol has seen more war and trouble the all the rest. These new pistols from Colt aint your daddys 1911. They are cerocoted tan, have Novak sights and other enhanced parts. Worth 1875 a copy.

 

[mkk41]

I wonder what the Navy Seals use?

Sig P226s with 124gr NATO-spec FMJ and 147gr +P+ JHP

They also use the HK SOCOM pistol in 45 ACP with optional silencer.

 

[mkk41]

A browning hi-power design in .45 would be good. No silly grip safety, double stack mag, etc, etc

I know they made BHP in 40 S&W, not sure about 45

There were some made by North American Arms of Canada back in the 70s.

 

[Nathan Forrest]

Well maybe the Marines can settle the cocked and locked controversy once and for all.

 

[Mots0311]

Sweet! I hated the M9 Beretta.

 

[TSQUARED]

I like the idea of going back to the 45ACP but there are more modern platforms such as the S&W M&P45. Nostalgia should not be the reason for choosing a service weapon. I shoot several 1911's in the usual pistol games but prefer the M&P45 for self defense.

 

[rebs081]

I have a Springfield and a RIA. The RIA is more accurate (after some tweaking).

what kind of tweaking did you do to your RIA ?

 

[M29since14]

Nostalgia should not be the reason for choosing a service weapon. I shoot several 1911's in the usual pistol games but prefer the M&P45 for self defense.

I don't see that nostalgia has much to do with it. There may be some politics, however. Simply put, the 1911 is in a class by itself, and probably always will be as long as cartridge arms are still used. (This bothers one of my Swiss friends greatly when I mention it. )

I have an M&P45 too, and while I would not say I dislike the gun, I would pass on a bushel basket of them for one good 1911 if I thought my life depended on my ability to use the gun. We're all different.

I am delighted to see the old pistol is still appreciated by folks who know a thing or two about shooting, and, more to the point, about fighting and killing our enemies. Go Marines!

 

[MP22]

Great decision indeed.

 

[jsimmons]

what kind of tweaking did you do to your RIA ?

I started with a FS Tactical that was shooting 8-inch groups at 25 yards, and replaced the following parts (myself, no gunsmith was involved):

- FLGR - went to a standard Colt guide rod (because I don't care for FLGR)
- Recoil spring - went with a Sprinco 16-pound spring (more consstent operation)
- The ambi-safety - went to a standard Colt safety (I don't need an ambi-safety)
- Barrel/bushing - installed a StormLake stainless drop-in kit
- Trigger - adjustable match trigger from Greider Precision
- Grips - changed to plain checkered grips (the ones that came on the gun were smooth and completely useless.

I went from 8-inch groups at 25 yards to 2-inch groups at the same distance. The Springer is also a sub-2-inch gun, but the group isn't quite as tight as the RIA. For the record, I sent the Springer to the Springfield Custom Shop, for accurizing and reliability mods.

I think the RIA ended up a better pistol than the Springer.

 

[oneyeopn]

Its, "Marine Corps", not Corp. Give me fifty!

I got it right in the body of the story but I gave you 50 and fixed it...LOL

 

[gkitch]

Friends, we (USMC) have been using the 1911 since the 80s..but only for our MEUSOC and SOCOM Marines who receive highly intensive training in their use. Most Marines still carry the Beretta. Up until now the MEUSOC pistols were custom made in small quantities via our Precision Wpns Section at Quantico. The open purchase of the Colt puts more 1911s readily available...but those custom MEUSOC pistols were absolutely stunning. Bar-Sto bbl, Noval Sights, Cylinder & Slide trigger and all hand fitted.

 

[M29since14]

Hopefully the new Colt pistols will be as well made.

 

[gkitch]

Hopefully the new Colt pistols will be as well made.

I'm sure the Colts will be excellent weapons, but they will not quite compare to the MEUSOCs of old. It always facsinated me that we were literally putting high-end custom carry pistols in the hands of young men to go in harm's way. The PWS at Quantico also produced the M40 Sniper rifles, the short-lived SAMR (Squad Advanced Marksmanship Rifle), and all of the competition weapons used by the shooting teams. The PWS essentially purchases top-drawer components and builds first rate custom weapons for Marines.

 

[M29since14]

Gkitch, I am curious, if you happen to know, what were the requirements for the hand-built pistols? Were they hand-built to achieve a certain accuracy requirement, or something else? Do you know anything about the requirements for the Colt pistol?

 

[sigp220.45]

Uh-oh..........

Looks like trouble in Colt Paradise:

Test Article Photos of MARSOC Winning Colt Rail Guns - Soldier Systems

The pics look pretty bad. Also, don't read the comments down below if salty language bothers you.

 

[Bat Guano]

Stevens at pages 145-148 states that the NAACO "Brigadier", an upscaled and very modified BHP design, was a one-off piece chambered for the .45 NAACO cartridge (much like the .45 Win. Magnum). Even with an alloy frame it weighed in at 51 ounces loaded.

Not exactly a commercial success.

 

[mamasfatty]

Looks like trouble in Colt Paradise:

Test Article Photos of MARSOC Winning Colt Rail Guns - Soldier Systems

The pics look pretty bad. Also, don't read the comments down below if salty language bothers you.

if those pictures are real,,that is a serious issue that needs to be delt with asap! 12000 rounds is more than most of us will ever shoot,but 12000 rounds from a duty gun isnt ****.....

 

[shawn mccarver]

Well maybe the Marines can settle the cocked and locked controversy once and for all.

What controversy is that? There is no controversy. "Condition One and only."