Masterpiece Lerk Trio - Complete!

[smitholdtimer]

Pre-29Smith

Bring them to Baton Rouge so we can see them in person, I'll bring my white gloves if you will let me handle them, oh yes, I like your style!

 

[newcastle]

Baughman Front Sight

No not common - they usually came with a Patridge front sight. May be worth a letter for that one.

From "American Rifleman";

The Baughman front sight was created on special order for a senior agent and firearms expert for the FBI. Frank Baughman was well-known in the Bureau as a close confidant of J. Edgar Hoover in the tumultuous time before World War II.

It was in this time that Smith & Wesson introduced the legendary Registered Magnum revolver, along with the new .357 Mag. cartridge. Baughman must have had some practical experience with combat shooting, training and equipment, because nothing makes as much sense as the ramp front sight that bears his name. He asked the S&W factory to build his registered Magnum with this new feature. Essentially, the sight is a long, rearward-sloping ramp that presents a square post when viewed from the rear. Its advantage is in the slick way that the gun may be holstered and drawn. There is no sharp edge or corner to catch on flexible leather when the shooter executes a fast draw.

Smith & Wesson liked the idea well enough that they used it on hundreds of thousands of K- and N-frame revolvers, as well as on some adjustable-sight J frames. And when the L frames made their appearance, the trusty Baughman was right there. I consulted with a known authority on S&Ws on this next point and we pretty much agree. It is not widely appreciated, but the Baughman ramp was the first ramp-type front sight to be used on a production revolver, and it is still in use today.

American Rifleman | Baughman Ramp Front Sight

 

[RKmesa]

From "American Rifleman";

The Baughman front sight was created on special order for a senior agent and firearms expert for the FBI. Frank Baughman was well-known in the Bureau as a close confidant of J. Edgar Hoover in the tumultuous time before World War II...

Fun write up on the Baughman sight. I guess I should have been more clear on my comment that you addressed - 6" barreled Masterpieces (whether K-22, K-38 or K-32) were almost always shipped with the Patridge front sight. On the flip side, almost all 4" barreled Combat Masterpieces (whether K-22 or K-38) were shipped with the Baughman sights. I have many many guns with the Baughman sight and find them to be some of my favorites. Therefore, my thoughts on getting a letter were primarily focused on the fact that the FS configuration was unusual for the barrel length, indicating that the gun may have been special ordered that way.

 

[Hondo44]

Even though the barrel shaped ejector rod knob is smaller than the mushroom style knob, it got the term "large". For the life of me, I do not know why it stuck, given it is only a medium sized knob when compared to its predecessor??

The 'mushroom' or 'acorn' extractor rod knob, and pre war barrel knob are not LERKs because:

That's an understandable assumption but terms like LERK come about because they have some period significance.

For example, the term "5 screw": most (but not all) pre war hand ejectors are 5 screws but not called that because it has no significance until the mid 1950s when some screws began to be eliminated. Then 5 screw , 4 screw, and 3 screw terms are used to signify exactly which vintage or version of a particular model one is referring to from the years before dash numbers signified engineering changes.

Hence a LERK (large extractor rod knob) signifies an unusual and desirable feature of early post war models; it tells us if a model has the pre war 'barrel' style extractor rod knob left over from the 1930s and war years because it's an exception to the more common post war period new style straight extractor rod.

Like the "5 screw" term, LERK has no significance for pre war models. In fact it's confusing in the pre war context because it doesn't distinguish between the 'mushroom' separate knob, 'mushroom' integral knob, or 'barrel' knob.

 

[Hondo44]

Pre-29Smith;

That is indeed a significant trio and accomplishment.

Because of the small number of K22s & K38s assembled with LERKs, It's not likely possible to have 3 'LERKs' all with sharp shoulder Magnas and "one liners" so your trio is as good as it can get!

 

[JSR III]

Large Extractor Rod Knob not Ejector

Jim while I understand your logic, I do use the term LERK when referring to the mushroom shaped extractor rod knobs found on the Bekeart models in my .22/32 HFT database.

The reason behind this is that the .22/32 came first with the mushroom size knob that was followed by the MERK (medium extractor rod knob) followed by the SERK (small extractor rod knob).

For the Bekeart models the LERK's go to around 1928 and serial number 482,053. The MERK's go to 1953/54 around 601,629 and from then on the SERK's.

As an aside, I own K-38 serial number K 23233 and it has the knurled rod tip that is the same size as the rod.

 

[glowe]

Jim, I am curious who came up with the term? I still disagree with the the use of the LERK designation. First, almost every other change made on S&Ws are compared through the evolution of any particular model from their beginning. Just to make things easy for the early post-war collectors should not be a basis for ignoring the development over time. Besides, there were only 3 knobs ever used on the K frame revolver. First, was a cylindrical shaped ejector knob on the First Model, second was the large mushroom knob, and finally was the smaller barrel shaped knob on the pre-war and early post-war guns. The knurled ejector rod that replaced the barrel shaped knob was not a knob at all, so why bother with the "large" term when it was the only ejector rod used on post-war guns? I also don't think it is confusing whether the mushroom knob was screwed on or integral with the rod, it was still a knob.

Anyway, I just cannot reconcile with the term, since I feel it is incorrect when discussing post-war S&W K frames.

I am not sure why you state the change from the large knob to the smaller knob that occurred in the late 1920s had no significance?? It was a change, it happened, and it does differentiate pre-war K frames from 1927 and earlier. Also, with regards to the 5 screw not meaning anything until it changed. It did change in the early years of the M&P as well as the post-war period. Early models had 4 screws and when the change was made, many defined them as 5 screw revolvers.

Are we far enough off track of this Thread yet? No matter if they had ejector rod knobs or not, those three revolvers represent something that few collectors accumulate in their lifetime.

 

[THEMULE]

Pre-29Smith;

That is indeed a significant trio and accomplishment.

Because of the small number of K22s & K38s assembled with LERKs, It's not likely possible to have 3 'LERKs' all with sharp shoulder Magnas and "one liners" so your trio is as good as it can get!

Strictly in the interest of education and CERTAINLY NOT taking anything away from the fine pieces Pre-29 Smith has acquired.....

Why is it not likely to find a K-32 LERK with a 1 Line Address? Both the 1 Line Address and LERK are early post war features. Do you say this because the K-32 were manufactured in such limited numbers and the production runs were spread over a "large" (for lack of a better word) time frame?
If my question will result in to much thread drift please say so and I'll start another thread.
Thank you.
Bob

 

[newcastle]

Baughman Front Sight

Fun write up on the Baughman sight. I guess I should have been more clear on my comment that you addressed - 6" barreled Masterpieces (whether K-22, K-38 or K-32) were almost always shipped with the Patridge front sight. On the flip side, almost all 4" barreled Combat Masterpieces (whether K-22 or K-38) were shipped with the Baughman sights. I have many many guns with the Baughman sight and find them to be some of my favorites. Therefore, my thoughts on getting a letter were primarily focused on the fact that the FS configuration was unusual for the barrel length, indicating that the gun may have been special ordered that way.

Thanks for the additional explanation. Does the fact that the factory box indicates a special order or special features front sight accomplish the same thing as the Factory Letter???

 

[THEMULE]

Thanks for the additional explanation. Does the fact that the factory box indicates a special order or special features front sight accomplish the same thing as the Factory Letter???

Sort of.......
The end label (which can be changed/manipulated to match the revolver) only provides a basic description of the firearm.

The letter provides a brief history of the model in question, and (from the letters I've seen) in the last paragraph gets into the weeds of said revolver.

It will provide the same info on the box label (with much more authority), and tell you where the piece shipped too, how many were in that shipping order and quite possibly more.

The letter (in my opinion), is a must when asking a premium price for a revolver due to special features, who may have owned it ect, ect....

Hope this answers your question.
Bob

 

[Hondo44]

Strictly in the interest of education and CERTAINLY NOT taking anything away from the fine pieces Pre-29 Smith has acquired.....

Why is it not likely to find a K-32 LERK with a 1 Line Address? Both the 1 Line Address and LERK are early post war features. Do you say this because the K-32 were manufactured in such limited numbers and the production runs were spread over a "large" (for lack of a better word) time frame?
Thank you.
Bob

Hi Bob,

Excellent questions.

I say not likely partly due to low production volume as you posted. But also because of another S&W phenomenon observed and occasionally discussed on this forum: "The first in, last out phenomenon", and I'll explain.

Post war Transitional models are often found with pre war parts or features on early post war guns. But the correlation of pre war parts to earliest PW production is inconsistent. The "one liners', i.e., with MADE IN USA correspond well to early PW produced guns. But LERKS do not (neither do pre war double pinch relieved thumb pieces as another example), and are often seen on later guns rather than the earliest PW produced guns.

The reason is "The first in, last out phenomenon", also called the "Bottom of the parts bin". S&W did not readily scrap old parts, and further, made no attempt to use up all pre war parts before using new post war parts. It appears that when new parts were delivered to the assembler's work stations, they were 'dumped' into parts bins on top of old pre war parts. Therefore new parts were used until the assembler got down to the older parts again at the bottom of the bin and were assembled into guns of generally higher serial numbers that were shipped later than earlier guns with new parts on them.

Also for use of a barrel knob, they had to be mated to a pre war notched barrel to fit.

So to find a LERK gun with other pre war features like the "one line" and early PW high shoulder Magnas is tough enough. But becomes exponentially more difficult for an already very low production volume model!

Sidebar: It would be interesting to know if all three of Pre-29Smith's magnificent Masterpiece trio have pre war relieved thumb pieces.

Flared or relieved edge:

(photo by JP@AK)

 

[Hondo44]

James and Gary,

Large Extractor Rod Knob not Ejector

Jim while I understand your logic, I do use the term LERK when referring to the mushroom shaped extractor rod knobs found on the Bekeart models in my .22/32 HFT database.

The reason behind this is that the .22/32 came first with the mushroom size knob that was followed by the MERK (medium extractor rod knob) followed by the SERK (small extractor rod knob).

That has logic too. People will just have to know your meaning of LERK contradicts the post war LERK usage. And I prefer SERK (straight extractor rod knob) or NERK (no extractor rod knob).

Jim,

1. I am curious who came up with the term? I still disagree with the the use of the LERK designation.

2. First, almost every other change made on S&Ws are compared through the evolution of any particular model from their beginning.

3. I also don't think it is confusing whether the mushroom knob was screwed on or integral with the rod, it was still a knob.

4. I am not sure why you state the change from the large knob to the smaller knob that occurred in the late 1920s had no significance??

5. Also, with regards to the 5 screw not meaning anything until it changed. It did change in the early years of the M&P as well as the post-war period. Early models had 4 screws and when the change was made, many defined them as 5 screw revolvers.

1. I first read the term on this forum 5 years ago, but don't know who coined it. I don't particularly like it, but users are quick to glom onto 'shortcut' terms. I like barrel knob.

2. The Transition models of the post war period have some unique configurations that coexist and a little different from the typical evolution of model changes. BTW, some PW Transitional I frames also have Barrel knobs (LERK models).

3. It only matters to those that want to know that detail, most particularly when disassembling the extractor rod.

4. It has great significance, hence the terms mushroom or barrel knob, just not in the context of the LERK term; as James' terms posted above illustrate, LERK PW usage conflicts with his terms.

5. The post war 5 screw common usage is a good analogy. When I posted "most BUT NOT ALL pre wars are 5 screw", it's the early Ks with 4 screws you bring up, and also the .32 Model 1896 different screw count, that I was referencing.

Particularly since the 4 screws of the PW K frame screw count are not the same 4 screws of the pre war 4 screw model. Neither is the 5 screw count of the PW I frame screw count the same as the model 1896 5 screw count. That's why the PW screw count doesn't pertain to pre war models. Generally only newbies call a pre war model a "5 screw".

The screw count differences of pre wars are usually a point of discussion in conversations about them w/o needing the PW terms.

Hope this helps.

 

[JSR III]

Along that same road, we could call the mushroom knob the LERK as it really is a Large Extractor Rod Knob. The next version is really not a knob at all but merely a larger diameter than the rod section at the end of the rod. So that would be the LDTTRSATEOTR. Following that scenario, then the small version could be the Knurled Extractor Rod Tip or KERT.

So now we would have the LERK, the LDTTRSATEOTR and the KERT.

The second one is very hard to pronounce but phonetically would be (leadersator) with the first syllable being lead like lead bullets.

 

[glowe]

I really think the three of us could be called NERDs when it comes to LERKs and KERTs. Don't get me started with LDTTRSATEOTRs

 

[newcastle]

Model 16-2 NIB

Sort of.......
The end label (which can be changed/manipulated to match the revolver) only provides a basic description of the firearm.

The letter provides a brief history of the model in question, and (from the letters I've seen) in the last paragraph gets into the weeds of said revolver.

It will provide the same info on the box label (with much more authority), and tell you where the piece shipped too, how many were in that shipping order and quite possibly more.

The letter (in my opinion), is a must when asking a premium price for a revolver due to special features, who may have owned it ect, ect....

Hope this answers your question.
Bob

Thank you again! I am requesting a factory letter from S&W. I have Roy Jinks Book and have been studying it. Letter should validate the end label. Unlike most other samples, mine has the original tools in the original plastic sheath, the Factory Registration Card, Owners Instructions/Parts List.

I am sending pictures with the "letter request" as well. Looking forward to receipt of letter and will share if interested.

Is it appropriate to ask values on this forum? Gun is 99.5% in Original Box.