Match-grade barrel?

[Sahrpshooter]

Hi people,

For months I was thinking about a good 1911 pistol purely for precision shooting. Nothing dynamic.
Living in Europe the options are a bit less great for 1911 models than in the USA. But options are there I think.
Last days I am starting to like the idea that a revolver could be just as accurate as the most expensive custom 1911's.
And that it's cheaper and easier to clean. Not shooting dynamic, the slower loading does not bother.

Bumping on the description, "match-grade barrel" does not give me satisfying information on the internet.
Could you please help me with a better insight?

For example:S&W 686 Target Champion
150 mm (6 in) match-grade barrel
Smith & Wesson Model 686 - Wikipedia

What does this mean, match-grade barrel? What did make it match-grade?
Could be that it once was a German only model.

Also this post: "Performance center revolvers have a trigger job done on them, plus they have a match barrel."
https://www****gerforum.net/posts/2391002/
What makes Performance Center revolver barrels match grade?

Which of these two above should have the highest match grade?

And there is the following text on the Smith and Wesson website:
PERFORMANCE CENTER® PRO SERIES® MODEL 686 SSR
"Completing the line between main production and the Performance Center, the Smith & Wesson® Pro Series®"

So this model fills the gap between Performance Center and normal models, but it still is a Performance Center model?

With the only goal accuracy, would it not be easier and safer to buy a production model and bring it to a gun smith for placing a custom "match-grade" barrel and possible further tweaking?

The model I have in mind is the 686 6" .357 / .38".

EDIT:
The link to the rugerforum is probably not ok. It should be:
rugerforumDOTnet/posts/2391002/
Place a . where it says DOT

 

[Protocall_Design]

If you want a really match grade 686, you will need to rebarrel it. The factory twist rate is 18-3/4". It's too slow of a twist to stabilize a slow target load out to 25 or 50 yards. That is why all the PPC guns have different barrels since PPC started in the 1950s or 1960s.

The barrels I like the best are Lothar Walther blank in 9.8" twist rate. I have not tried the polygon, I don't know how well they work. In my 686es, I'm getting about 3/8" (10mm) groups at 25 yards and about 1-1/4" (32mm) at 50 yards with the gun in a Ransom Rest. Holding it by hand on a bench with sandbags, about twice as large groups. These barrels work fine with everything from bunny fart wadcutters to 357 Magnum.

You will not get that kind of performance from a stock barrel with target loads. Shooting at 1200 feet per second or more, you can get decent groups with a stock barrel.

You will not get a tuned action or stellar accuracy from a factory gun. Buy a regular one and redo the action and barrel and (done properly) you will have a revolver that will shoot as well or better than any semi auto for way less money. Here, it would cost around $1800 to build a revolver that is the equal of a $6000 auto.

 

[Alk8944]

While I don't disagree with Protocol Design, a "match" barrel" is whatever the seller chooses to call
match". Caveat emptor!!!

 

[Autonomous]

From what I read match barrel has become a sales buzz word.
On 1911s most modern barrels are capable of very good accuracy if the fit is good. Most important is the barrel to bushing fit. The lower barrel lugs and link to slide stop fit are important.
After that the potential gains become smaller. Slide to frame fit is not as important as barrel to slide fit. Repeatability is everything.
Hand fitting requires time and if a builder or gunsmith does it, money.

There are some good and some equally as bad Youtube videos on tuning a handgun.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Great info Protocall_Design. Very informative and clear.
It would be perfect optaining a highly accurate revolver for less than 2000 $ or € and not having to worry about sample variation.

And thanks Alk and Autonomous. I thought I was missing some match-grade information.
I believe in the "Ask about our special 11/2" guarantee" from Les Baer for obtaining high quality. But I think also a good gun smith can do something like this.
First step is going to be upgrading a revolver. The same gun smith can probably also help me with importing a whole pistol (1911) or parts in the further future.

 

[colt_saa]

First of all let me just say welcome to the Forum.


Performance Center revolvers do not have a trigger job. This is a very common misconception

The wording from the factory is that the revolver has a Tuned Action.

This is exactly like a car manufacturer who advertises that the performance automobile has a tuned exhaust system. It does not mean that someone is tuning every revolver individually by hand, it means that the parts inside have all been specially selected to work harmoniously with each other

For the most part the revolvers from the Factory do not have match barrels either. There are some Performance Center offerings that do have barrels from Lothar Walther and those of course are match grade. However the Performance Center does air gage many of the barrels that are used on its higher end revolvers. This checks the tolerances of the rifling inside the barrel and only barrels that meet their strict requirements are used to assemble revolvers the rest are put aside, so you might be able to call that a match barrel even though the factory does not refer to it in such a manner

Now regarding the phrase Target Champion on the firearm. This is a phrase that is put on every revolver that is an exclusive offering of WISCHO in Germany it does not mean it is a target revolver, it does not even mean that it came from the Performance Center. It might just be a production gun anywhere.

Performance Center revolvers are manufactured on different CNC mills than production guns. Additionally even if they have the same model as a production firearm the code that is used to mill them is tweaked for the PC. One of the things that makes performance center firearms a cut above and beyond a production gun is that the tooling on the mills is changed more frequently this makes more uniform parts from the first one run to the last one run

Regarding the 686SSR. That is a pro series firearm. The Pro Series our firearms that are manufactured on the production floor that get a few parts from the Performance Center. In the case of the SSR, one of the parts is it's barrel with the distinctive Performance Center profile

The easy way to spot a Performance Center revolver is that the Performance Center logo will be on the frame in place of the traditional Smith & Wesson logo

If you have a picture of the particular revolver that you have in mind post it to this thread and we can give you more detailed information on that firearm


Saying all of that, I am a huge fan of Performance Center firearms. I own and shoot quite a few of them.

All of the Performance Center firearms that I have ever had the pleasure of shooting have been truly exceptional examples of the gun makers art.

I do not know if you have this option where you live or not but the best advice I could give you is to go to a range that rents handguns and rent a 686 production revolver and give it a try you may find that the revolver's accuracy is well within the tolerances that you are looking for. If you are simply looking for the most accurate revolver possible then the proper option is to buy the firearm for it's frame and have a gunsmith make you a firearm by hand so that you'll have the barrel that you want along with the action that you want and the balance that you want, etc.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Thanks colt_saa for the welcoming and the wealth of information on Smith & Wesson revolvers. With your help and the help from the other members above, I feel like I have a complete image of the things I wanted to know.

Regards!

 

[rct269]

You want accuracy?! Join the club!!

Once upon a time, I decided everybody should have a custom gun---it's good for what ails you---no matter what ails you!!

I bought a new Colt Government Model, covered it with money, and sent it to Wilson Combat, with the instructions to "Make me a Master Grade."

Almost exactly to the day of promised delivery six months later it came back. The only thing I recognized was the serial number----EVERYTHING else was different!!

As to accuracy, it's very clear the bullets are guided by radar!

By comparison, I had a S&W Model of 1950----and 1955. Both were exceptionally accurate------teeny tiny groups from a machine rest---but not even close to the teeny tiny groups from Wilson's Master Grade!!

All this is pretty much akin to racing cars-----where "Speed costs money! How fast do you want to go?"

(There is NO comparison between a mass produced product, and a custom made to order product from a wizard!)

Ralph Tremaine

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

You want accuracy?! Join the club!!

Once upon a time, I decided everybody should have a custom gun---it's good for what ails you---no matter what ails you!!

I bought a new Colt Government Model, covered it with money, and sent it to Wilson Combat, with the instructions to "Make me a Master Grade."

In 1957 Colt brought out the first Gold Cup National Match. So that was good enough for me instead of looking for a 1911Smith that may or may not be a bubba. Different times indeed.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Hi Ralph,

I like the comparison with racing cars. Personally, I have little with the very, very often heard "the gun is so much better than the shooter".
It differs in the disciplines and competitions, but I think that for being the best also in accurate shooting, you'll have to go for the best material possible. Nice story about the Colt. Great that you found the right gun smith that time.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

In 1957 Colt brought out the first Gold Cup National Match. So that was good enough for me instead of looking for a 1911Smith that may or may not be a bubba. Different times indeed.

Yeah, perhaps one of the good things about the internet, that people who strive for the highest quality can find each other more easily.

 

[Jim Watson]

Cynical me says they can stamp it "match grade" but they don't claim it is match WINNING grade.

A friend said that when he got into target shooting, he could not afford an accurized automatic, so he bought a Model 25 .45 revolver and made it to NRA Master with it.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

Most factory barrels can outshoot the person using it. That being said all barrel cutters have a finite usable life. They get replaced after so many barrels are cut. You have no idea whether your gun’s barrel was cut with brand new cutters, middle of the cutters life or the last cut before replacing. The manufacturer’s quality control standards come into play here.

With a 1911 platform pistol it’s often not the quality and consistency it the front and rear lockup of the barrel plus how well the bushing is matched to the barrel.

Years ago Bill Wilson said when it came to the 1911 the stock Colt barrel was nearly always as good as it got…but customers wanted a name barrel from a custom maker on the custom built guns. That was also before Wilson started selling barrels with his name on them. The profit motive is strong.

I have a Colt Combat Elite and Lightweight Commander I sent to Novak’s over thirty years ago. I had their sights installed (this was before Colt put better sights on at the factory) and given a trigger job. I kept the stock Colt barrels. They’re each laser accurate and completely reliable.

A match barrel isn’t always required…do so if you like…but define your actual needs and how you intend to use the gun. Less is more.

 

[357 shooter]

Hi people,

For months I was thinking about a good 1911 pistol purely for precision shooting. Nothing dynamic.
Living in Europe the options are a bit less great for 1911 models than in the USA. But options are there I think.
Last days I am starting to like the idea that a revolver could be just as accurate as the most expensive custom 1911's.
And that it's cheaper and easier to clean. Not shooting dynamic, the slower loading does not bother.


The model I have in mind is the 686 6" .357 / .38".

What kind of precision shooting are referring to? I've owned my 6" 686 for 30 years now and its actually one of the most accurate out of the box repeating handguns I have ever owned.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

As a geezer I'd say look around for a 50 to 75 or so year old S&W. Go from there. Hang out at a large range and start talking to the guys that can actually shoot impressive groups. They will know who's a good smith.

My two most accurate guns are a 90 year old Colt Woodsman that had a 7" target barrel installed 75 plus years ago. And a 71 year old Remington Rangemaster 37. Both originally owned by my father who was a machinist and worked his way through high school for a gunsmith.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Cynical me says they can stamp it "match grade" but they don't claim it is match WINNING grade.

A friend said that when he got into target shooting, he could not afford an accurized automatic, so he bought a Model 25 .45 revolver and made it to NRA Master with it.

Haha, yeah, favors go out to revolvers!

 

[Sahrpshooter]

A match barrel isn’t always required…do so if you like…but define your actual needs and how you intend to use the gun. Less is more.

Less is indeed more with the risk for too much.
Too much beer, too much money, too much shooting at the lane, too happy, too satisfied.

I bet Pogačar would win the race on a $ 1000,00 bike.
Max Verstappen probably needs his car at least +/- 99,8% as good as the best car in the race.

With pistol shooting your pistol probably does not has to be as good as the best gun in the match to the same grade as with rifle shooting.
But the pistol for a shooter is far more important than a short for a runner. I love good quality.
With at least 3 times a week at the shooting lane (+ dry firing at home) my hobby is costing money and time. * 1.500,00 or * 2.000,00 is not a weird step (in my opinion).

 

[Sahrpshooter]

As a geezer I'd say look around for a 50 to 75 or so year old S&W. Go from there. Hang out at a large range and start talking to the guys that can actually shoot impressive groups. They will know who's a good smith.

My two most accurate guns are a 90 year old Colt Woodsman that had a 7" target barrel installed 75 plus years ago. And a 71 year old Remington Rangemaster 37. Both originally owned by my father who was a machinist and worked his way through high school for a gunsmith.

I never went to the USA, but reading your post, I think you spend some time over there.
Thank you very much for this insight in quality from the old days. I really did know nothing about quality from years back.
But my assumption is that it's harder to find old pistols and revolvers in europe.
Finding a good gun smith should be doable. Not as easy as in the USA though.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

What kind of precision shooting are referring to? I've owned my 6" 686 for 30 years now and its actually one of the most accurate out of the box repeating handguns I have ever owned.

Geat man, nice to see that revolvers probably do not expire fast due to time.

 

[357 shooter]

Geat man, nice to see that revolvers probably do not expire fast due to time.

And the majority of the rounds fired in that time span have been magnum reloads. As to accuracy I'm pleased with it as is.