Maximum accuracy from .38 lead Wadcutters

[David Jackson]

I have posted on this forum before; as I learn more and more about S & W revolvers in general and the two I have left in particular I wind up with more questions, and one relates to bullet diameter and accuracy.
I have read enough times that bullets should be about .001" greater in diameter than the cylinder throat diameter so that a gentle push will force a bullet (just the projectile) through the cylinder that I believe that must be true. I don't have a button gauge to measure the i.d. of the throat of the cylinder but I can use the alternate method I read of, simply force a lead projectile through the throat and measure its o.d.
When I did that I got .355". My lead wadcutter bullets measure .358" so it is no wonder that it takes a lot of force to push one through the cylinder throat.
So, a couple of questions: 1) Does it make sense to try to buy a sizing die to size already made projectiles to, in my case, .356"? and 2) at some point I would like to acquire another 52 (I had one years ago, had to let it go - guns are, after a store of value - when rich buy, when poor sell) and I wonder if anyone knows the i.d. of a 52 barrel or if those are all too different to make a blanket statement of barrel i.d. and 3) inasmuch as at the moment I only have a 2" (1&7/8" actually) 49 and a 4" model 10-7 (skinny barrel) will I gain any appreciable increase in accuracy if I go to all the trouble of resizing already manufactured projectiles? (I can imagine that kind of precision might make a difference in a precise accurate kind of gun such as a 52).

 

[Muley Gil]

I have posted on this forum before; as I learn more and more about S & W revolvers in general and the two I have left in particular I wind up with more questions, and one relates to bullet diameter and accuracy.
I have read enough times that bullets should be about .001" greater in diameter than the cylinder throat diameter so that a gentle push will force a bullet (just the projectile) through the cylinder that I believe that must be true. I don't have a button gauge to measure the i.d. of the throat of the cylinder but I can use the alternate method I read of, simply force a lead projectile through the throat and measure its o.d.
When I did that I got .355". My lead wadcutter bullets measure .358" so it is no wonder that it takes a lot of force to push one through the cylinder throat.
So, a couple of questions: 1) Does it make sense to try to buy a sizing die to size already made projectiles to, in my case, .356"? and 2) at some point I would like to acquire another 52 (I had one years ago, had to let it go - guns are, after a store of value - when rich buy, when poor sell) and I wonder if anyone knows the i.d. of a 52 barrel or if those are all too different to make a blanket statement of barrel i.d. and 3) inasmuch as at the moment I only have a 2" (1&7/8" actually) 49 and a 4" model 10-7 (skinny barrel) will I gain any appreciable increase in accuracy if I go to all the trouble of resizing already manufactured projectiles? (I can imagine that kind of precision might make a difference in a precise accurate kind of gun such as a 52).

The only way to truly tell is to shoot the sized and unsized wadcutters through you r revolvers, using a Ransom rest.

I really doubt you would see enough difference to bother with the effort though.

 

[H Richard]

The whole idea of the accuracy of the HBWC is the hollow base that the gas driving the bullet through the throat and down the barrel will expand the skirt of the HBWC to fill the grooves and aid in accuracy.

 

[cowboy4evr]

You need to know the size of the " groove " diameter of the barrel , not just the throat size . If the throat size is larger than the groove diameter , then yes size to the cylinder throats . But , if the groove measurement is larger than the cylinder throats , then you size your bullet to the groove measurement and you need to have the cylinder throats opened up to the size of the projectile you are using . Your cylinder throats measure .355 ? I would definitely enlarge those . I bought a model 19-5 that looked great . When I got it home I found the cylinder throats measured .355 . No wonder it looked new ? I'm sure the accuracy was " lacking " as the bullet just sort of rattled it's way down the barrel . I resized the cylinder throats and made a good shooter out of it ---now . I hope this helps , Regards Paul

 

[Jim Watson]

The nominal groove diameter of the Model 52 is .3555". How much tolerance they allowed in a target pistol, I don't know.
I would say buy first, measure second, load third.

Me? I just throw in some HBWC and plink away.

 

[gwpercle]

I started out reloading 38 / 357 ammo in 1967 , Lyman #3 Reloading Manual had them sized .357" , so I bought .357" sizing die , cast WC and SWC so sized for 35 years . 10 years ago bought .358" die to try to improve accuracy . The honest truth is in a model 64 S&W with a red dot sight , 38 special , Cast 148 gr. WC , 2.7 grs. Bullseye , tested 50 rounds w/ bullets sized .357" and 50 rounds sized .358" ...
Indoor range 50 feet from a solid rest , hand held(no ransom rest )
I wanted the .358" bullets to shoot better but the sad truth is the .357" sized ammo seemed to group just a little tighter ... Lyman #3 was right and I wasted a few dollars on a .358" sizing die but another day and another revolver ... it might be a different story ... Try both sizes if you can , nothing is written in stone in this hobby !
Please note my WC's are solid base cast by me in a 148 gr. mould .
Gary

 

[colt_saa]

My lead wadcutter bullets measure .358" so it is no wonder that it takes a lot of force to push one through the cylinder throat.

Are you talking about hard cast wadcutters? Or soft swaged hollow base wadcutters?

They are two totally different animals when it comes to hand loading

 

[Protocall_Design]

Another, sometimes overlooked, part of accuracy is the barrel twist rate. A slow moving bullet will be spinning slower than a fast moving bullet from the same twist barrel. The speed at which the bullet is spinning slows down just as the forward velocity slows down the further the bullet gets from the barrel. If the bullet is far enough out, at some point the bullet RPM drops below that which is required to stabilize the bullet. A heavier bullet will retain it's forward and rotational velocity longer than a lighter bullet at the same velocity. The most accurate loads I have found for revolvers at long distances (100 to 200 yards) are the heaviest for caliber hollow point bullets. For example, 180 gr. jhp in .357 cal., or 300 gr. jhp in .44 cal. I'm not exactly sure how the hollow point part comes into the equation, but it always made a difference in testing.

Accuracy in terms of group size is generally related to distance from the barrel. In other words, how small a group is a given gun and load capable of at a given distance? At what distance does the group size begin to scatter and grow larger?

I have found, as it relates to S&W revolvers, light (slow) target loads don't shoot the groups I would like at 50 yards with a factory twist rate which is 1 in 18-3/4". With more velocity and/or heavier bullets, the groups get better. With tighter twist rate, 1 in 10" to 1 in 14", the light target loads will remain stabilized and shoot tight groups at 50 yards.

That's why all the PPC guns have a different barrel with a tighter twist rate. At 25 yards or less, most loads will shoot acceptable groups, assuming everything is mechanically correct to begin with.

 

[boatbum101]

.355 throat should be opened up . Don't know how anal you wanna get on accuracy but a factory S&W barrel with it's 1 in 18.75" twist won't get you there if you shoot 50yds . Most 52's run between .354 - .356 bore . Most competitive shooters run faster twist barrels . Some as fast as 1 in 10 .

 

[M29since14]

Good advice above. My own opinion is that you slug your barrel and measure the CLEAN exit bores in your cylinder with pin gages. I consider "ideal" is when the exit bores are 0.001" bigger than groove diameter and the bullets are 0.001" bigger than the exit bores. In my experience, this will be the best setup to reduce leading to an absolute minimum. That is unquestionably an aid to accuracy.

That's about as far as I am willing to go with this topic. The "best" accuracy with any given gun is a moving target, but getting the mechanics setup right first is only a logical thing to do. How much difference in accuracy that makes as opposed to just making good quality ammo to "usual" specs, keeping the barrel clean, and the gun properly tuned is up for grabs.

When we start to demand substantially better than the old standard of 1" per ten-yards from a production-grade handgun, a lot of variables in the firearm and ammunition get really tedious to pin down and fix. Sizing the exit bores, if they are too small, should not be particularly expensive.

 

[Jim Watson]

Gee, I have to tell my PPC Master/Governor's 20 friend that his S&W M14 and M52 are not accurate enough to shoot wadcutters at 50 yards with.

But I am sure his Fred Schmidt and Travis Strahan 1500 guns have fast twist barrels.

I don't know the twist rate of his PPC9.