McGivern's Guns?? LET THE BUYER BEWARE!!

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Then there are hundreds of guns allegedly used by Pancho Villa. Allegedly after poor Pancho was assassinated, his widow had a profitable business of buying up junk guns and selling them at big prices to gullible gringo gun collectors as having been used by Pancho.

Wives were a disposable commodity to Pancho. There were at least 25 women who claimed to have been married to him.

Humans are an interesting species.

People who claim to be related to famous people is a good example. I noticed that especially for people who were adopted. The odds of being the illegitimate child of Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley or Bobby Layne is really zero.

 

[2152hq]

I was offered Billy the Kids' Colt 45 automatic once. Had his initials right there scratched into the plastic grips.
..Plus a note from his son stating that it was handed down to him.
Had a witness to the signiture too.
Sure wish I had the money at the time.

 

[Bekeart]

Ed McGivern, Phil Bekeart, 101 Dalmatians, etc.

Ed McGivern and Phil Bekeart were both DEALERS.

While Ed McGivern was known to shoot some guns.

I would not expect either Ed McGivern, Phil Bekeart, or any dealer to shoot every gun received in a shipment.

From the amount of shooting Ed McGivern did using hia many guns trying to identify and prove providence for any specific one would be like trying to identify the father of one of the 101 Dalmatians without DNA.

Bekeart

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

2152, were the initials BtK? I visited the Billy the Kid grave while on a motorcycle tour a few years ago. This was in Eastern New Mexico. Fenced in to "protect" the grave. Middle of Nowhere, NM.

Yeah I'm easily distracted on 6,000+ mile rides.

 

[DARE]

A few more pics from Ed's book.

Ed with a K-22 demonstrating proper position and hold for Bullet Art.
Some Ed McGivern Bullet Art.

I think Ed used K-22s at least occasionally for bullet art. Rifles were normally used by others for this, but Ed's weapon of choice was usually a S&W revolver. Mike Priwer has documented that he also used K-22s for training.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

In doing research for letters, I've seen a number of invoices sent to McGivern.
I don't think he shot ever one of the hundreds of guns he received.

 

[ol777gunnerz]

I'm not interested. Reminds me of Bat Masterson.

Allegedly, long after he retired from being a law officer Masterson would buy old . 45 six-guns and "sell" them to gullible persons as "relics" of his Gunfighting days.

Bat Masterson - Wikipedia

Pancho Villa's widow always had at least one revolver on hand for the souvenir hunters constantly tracking her down "that was Pancho's gun".

 

[mikepriwer]

As near as I can tell, McGivern stopped shooting sometime around WW2. In a letter to either Groff or Doug Wesson, he talks about the arthritis in his hands. In all the pictures of him shooting, he is never wearing glasses. In he picture of him in the local newspaper, on the day of his death, he is wearing very thick glasses. I seriously doubt that he shot anything during the last years of his life, particularly when he was 77.

Mike Priwer

 

[glowe]

Ed McGivern and Phil Bekeart were both DEALERS . . .

What does Bekaert have to do with McGivern?? The two were diametrically opposed in their careers. Bekaert likely sold tens-of-thousands of guns from a brick & mortar store-front. Ed McGivern was a sign painter and exhibition shooter PERIOD.

Two of Ed' records involved multiple guns:

4. Ten S&Ws: drop one gun, pick up another from the bench, fire 50 shots, five from each gun; double action, in 21 seconds, all hits.

5. Twenty S&Ws: Same as above, 20 guns, 100 shots, 47 seconds.

Did he eventually sell every gun he ever received, yes but I bet he checked most of them out first to make sure he kept the best actions in hie inventory. As mentioned earlier, he did train police departments and as a result they bought guns for their officers, but most were sent to and paid for by the department simply because Ed did not have that kind of money to lay out for dozens of guns at a time. Did he sell his guns to some policemen, sure and to others as well.

Bottom line is that the name Ed McGivern remains well known to target shooters and gun collectors so any gun associated with Ed is worth good money. Any record holding gun associated with Ed remains among some of the most valuable S&Ws of all time.

 

[hkcavalier]

This is an interesting thread on collectors' thoughts on what provenance really entails. Purchased by, used by, carried by, owned by, etc. all have different meanings and different "juice" for certain people. Some value a worn out wreck carried by a famous person over a LNIB gun that sat in their safe until they died...and some feel the exact opposite.

 

[Ameshawki]

Pancho Villa's widow always had at least one revolver on hand for the souvenir hunters constantly tracking her down "that was Pancho's gun".

Jesse James' mom supposedly did the same thing.

 

[raljr1]

Reminds me of a conversation my son and I had about a couple of commemorative 1911s his unit had custom made for themselves after their deployments. He asked me if he should shoot them or keep them in pristine condition. I told him that since he had his name engraved on them that they wouldn't be worth anything more in pristine condition than any other 1911, and maybe even less. I also told him that if he became famous it wouldn't matter what kind of condition they were in, they'd still be worth a good bit of money. He chose to shoot them.

Sent from my Pixel 7a using Tapatalk

 

[gunbarrel]

Remembering The Legendary Ed McGivern | An Official Journal Of The NRA

 

[raljr1]

I looked at the after auction prices and it looks like these did not sell.

Lot Detail - (C) WELL DOCUMENTED PAIR OF ED MCGIVERN'S SMITH & WESSON K-22 MASTERPIECE DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVERS WITH RELATED EPHEMERA.

 

[DARE]

Robert, thanks for the lot detail.
I sure would like to have them. My problem is no money.

 

[rct269]

I looked at the after auction prices and it looks like these did not sell.

Lot Detail - (C) WELL DOCUMENTED PAIR OF ED MCGIVERN'S SMITH & WESSON K-22 MASTERPIECE DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVERS WITH RELATED EPHEMERA.

Well if that's the case, I for one am a happy camper!!

Somebody up above reported the sale price of $12,000, and I repeated it---sad on the one hand that someone had been taken for a ride---also sad that my prior contact with the auction folks had been for naught---not that I really expected them to pull the lot on my say-so---but hoped they would.

Whether they did or not is an unknown, they may have not sold simply because the bidding didn't meet a reserve.

Whatever, the bottom line is this story ain't necessarily over---and we very well may never know the ending!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[DHernandez]

I bought a Colt Single Action Army that Biden said he carried in the Civil War…

 

[raljr1]

Whether they did or not is an unknown, they may have not sold simply because the bidding didn't meet a reserve.

Whatever, the bottom line is this story ain't necessarily over---and we very well may never know the ending!

Ralph Tremaine

Looks like there was a minimum bid of $8000

 

[series guy]

There seems to be a big double standard here. During my time here the standard has always been who or where the gun shipped to backed by a factory letter. Sometimes we are lucky enough to have provenance after that and sometimes it's just hopeful speculation. Bekeart was a dealer but his name on the paper is deemed important enough by collectors to have multiple classifications of Bekeartness. Same goes for a Jovino gun. In my opinion it's pretty hard to discredit a McGivern lettered gun just because he sold some guns. I would think he handled and shot more S&Ws than many other historically relevant gun owners.

 

[mrcvs]

Let's get this straight…

If I'm BUYING a McGivern owned revolver, it's no doubt promoted as his revolver, letters as such, surely worth a ton.

But if I'm SELLING that very same revolver, it's one of many, many to pass through his hands and not all that unusual and, therefore, worth very little?