Military model 70?

[Richard Simmons]

Have some questions regarding a family firearm whose stewardship has recently become my own.

This particular rifle was acquired 30+ years ago from a gunsmith/custom builder in Oregon. Supposedly it had something to do with military marksmanship.

The serial number, 47293 dates to 1942 based on the info I've found. It has a checkered stock with checkered steel buttplate. On the port side of the receiver near the chamber is a faint electropenciled, "US Property". The barrel is Winchester marked in 30-06. The barrel measures 24" in length and tapers from 1" at the chamber to .780" at the muzzle.

I have not removed the it from the stock yet to check for a barrel date but based on the finish differences the barrel is newer than the receiver.

Now for the kicker. Though not marked as such the rifle is chambered in 30-338. It came with some very old RCBS 30-338 dies and numerous boxes of hand loads. The dies must be pretty old as the box only shows a P.O. Box for RCBS on it.

The loaded rounds are from the gunsmith owner and are in very nice condition even though they are over 30 years old. I was told that after it was acquired it was sighted in at 200 yards and was quite accurate.

The one box of ammo I'm looking at now is loaded with W-W Super 338 Winchester Magnum brass, 180gr Sierra Spitzer flat base bullets and 75 grains of DuPont IMR 4831. Type of primer is not listed.

Currently is sporting an old Redfield Widefield 2x7 and Redfield base.

Can't find it now but ran across a serial number list of USMC model 70's and IIRC this serial number was in the range given but not called out specifically.

Anyway, just looking for info on its possible history or where to look? TIA

P.S. I'll try to figure out a way to post photos. Since Photobucket changed their terms, I've not found another hosting site.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

The Marines had a number of match grade Model 70s in .30-06. Many, if not most...were pulled for sniper duty in WWII, Korea and some in Vietnam.

If it's a genuine Marine rifle it's been re-chambered. The Marine armorer's certainly had and have the knowhow to have done that. It's just as easily could have been done by a civilian gunsmith after being surplussed.

I would start with the Marine Corps...maybe at Quantico for some research into it.

 

[Bullet Bob]

Many, many possibilities. Does it have a heavy stock? Aperture sights?

Could be a converted Palma match rifle, you can google those to see if it matches yours.

 

[Richard Simmons]

I hadn't thought about contacting USMC.

It has no iron sights and its what I believe you'd call a sporter stock.

Found an old article about the Navy shooting team using 30-338 for competition but I don't believe they were in the same configuration as mine.

 

[AJ]

You might want to ask the curator of weapons at the USMC Museum Research - National Museum of the Marine Corps

 

[LVSteve]

You can always post pictures directly on the forum.

 

[rockquarry]

Depending on how intense your interest is, there area a couple of good books by an author named Senich about US military sniping and the rifles. I've had these in my library for many years; one has an emphasis on Viet Nam and long range sniping. I don't recall the full titles.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

The 338 Win Mag was released in 1958. The 300 Win Mag was released in 1963. The 30-338 and the 300 Norma Mag were tearing up the Match circuit until the 300 win mag came out. 300 Win Mag has 1/10" more case volume than 30-338 and a short neck. In a pinch, you can shoot 30-338 and 300 Norma Mag in a 300 Win Mag rifle but not the other way around.

The 1953 Wimbledon Cup Was won with a Win Model 70 pre war Match Action that had been on a USMC sniper rifle. It fell in to Japanese hands then was repatriated. The rifle was in such bad condition that only the action was saved. In about 1947 Col Townsen Wheeland offered it for sale in the "American Rifleman" want adds. Keith Turpy bought it for $40. It was sent to Winchester's Custom Shop for barreling and stocking. It went into competition in 1953 with Sierra 180 grain Gameking bullets and it won. The next spring Mr. Turpy ordered his yearly 1000 Gameking bullets. His package arrived and when opened the first thing he saw was his payment check. There were the 1000 Gamekings he ordered, there were also 1000 180 grain prototype Matchking bullets, and a nice note from the people at Sierra thanking him for using their products (And would he please try this new design of bullet?) As of 2010 he still had at least one hand labeled and unopened box of the Matchkings. He said he tried them out and used them for practice, but only competed with the 180 Gameking for the rest of his shooting career'.

My personal 300 Win Mag likes the 200 grain Gameking better than any other bullet. The moral of the story is shoot what the gun likes, not what anyone is trying to sell you. A second moral would be, "If it works, DON'T fix it!"

Ivan

 

[WR Moore]

This information has been culled from several books over decades. Official snipers went in and out of favor between WWI and WWII/Korea and afterward. Both the Army & Marine Corp had stocks of bolt guns for both competition teams and for recreational shooting in off duty time. [Not sure who had custody of the recreation gear. The team guns were "owned" by the match teams.] When war time needs required, the team and recreational guns got drafted for duty use. Old photos show a lot of Unertl target scopes on WWII/Korea era sniper rifles, although Weaver made some too.

The official WWII Army sniper rifle was a 1903 Springfield, but there were also M1 versions. IIRC-the books are here but buried-Carlos Hathcock was using a model 70 in .30-06 for some of his initial sniping in Viet Nam.

.30-.338 was a favored cartridge for the Leech and Wimbledon Cup 1000 yard matches back before the .300 Win Mag was developed. Many stuck with it for awhile because of the short neck of the WM. I recall reading that one noted competitor would bump the bullet seating on his WM match ammo the night before to get a more even neck tension.

 

[rockquarry]

This information has been culled from several books over decades. Official snipers went in and out of favor between WWI and WWII/Korea and afterward. Both the Army & Marine Corp had stocks of bolt guns for both competition teams and for recreational shooting in off duty time. [Not sure who had custody of the recreation gear. The team guns were "owned" by the match teams.] When war time needs required, the team and recreational guns got drafted for duty use. Old photos show a lot of Unertl target scopes on WWII/Korea era sniper rifles, although Weaver made some too.

The official WWII Army sniper rifle was a 1903 Springfield, but there were also M1 versions. IIRC-the books are here but buried-Carlos Hathcock was using a model 70 in .30-06 for some of his initial sniping in Viet Nam.

.30-.338 was a favored cartridge for the Leech and Wimbledon Cup 1000 yard matches back before the .300 Win Mag was developed. Many stuck with it for awhile because of the short neck of the WM. I recall reading that one noted competitor would bump the bullet seating on his WM match ammo the night before to get a more even neck tension.

Hathcock used an 8x Unertl on his Model 70 and often under very adverse conditions. Anyone with Unertl experience knows how fragile these scopes are in comparison to other scopes. That's not a criticism of Unertl as they are excellent scopes with very repeatable adjustments, but they were not designed or intended for heavy duty use.

It's quite a testimony to the Unertl company that their scopes survived rough handling as sniper scopes.

 

[WR Moore]

The 10X scope made for the USMC was a whole different story. Allegedly, you could drive tent stakes with them and not change POI.

I visited the company while it was still family owned. I intended to buy one of their target scopes, but they didn't have any in stock. When the sales guy commented that their 2 inch (Ultra?) target scope was almost as bright as a hunting scope, I decided I needed to re-evaluate my scope choice.

 

[rockquarry]

The 10X scope made for the USMC was a whole different story. Allegedly, you could drive tent stakes with them and not change POI.

I visited the company while it was still family owned. I intended to buy one of their target scopes, but they didn't have any in stock. When the sales guy commented that their 2 inch (Ultra?) target scope was almost as bright as a hunting scope, I decided I needed to re-evaluate my scope choice.

The 10X was many, many years later and had internal adjustments. Wasn't that Unertl built by a completely different company that only used the Unertl name?

 

[wood714]

Carlos Hathcock was using a model 70 in .30-06 for some of his initial sniping in Viet Nam.

I've read he wasn't happy when they changed to the Remington 700 in 308.

I traded guns with a retired US Marshal that did some kinda witness protection. He said he met Carlos at a range once, and Carlos asked to shoot his rifle. After shooting it he asked him what he thought. Carlos said there was 2 problems...it ain't a 70 and it ain't 30.06.

 

[mikeruns]

I was a USMC rifle team armourer at Quantico where we built all of the match and sniper rifles from receiver up and although the M40 series sniper guns were short action Remingtons, we did use many Model 70s' for the 1000 yard matches. In my armory, I stumbled across model 70 serial number 46. So, they certainly had them around for a long, long time. Carlos Hathcock used one for sure(I knew him and his son commissioned me to build his dad a match m14, which I did) and they were still using the mod 70 in the early 90s' when I ended active service at the rifle team equipment shop as a 2112. I was really in awe when doing my first annual serialized inventory in our cage for the high power team and I first saw that very early model 70 receiver in a box full of them. We also used Hall actions and Remingtons for the magnum 1000 yard guns as I recall. We also had a couple stacks of Remington Navy 720s' that were trophy rifles for certain matches and they were fantastic new in box with original leather slings. John Unertl, once called the shop when I was on duty and I took his call regarding some scopes. The Unertls' were still being made by the family at that time and I believe there were 3 John Unertl men in succession until the end sometime in the early 2000s'….there were many other interesting firearms there that I was able to handle and shoot and build…Cheers!

 

[WR Moore]

The family owned company completed the USMC contract. As noted just above, at some point Unertl ownership passed out of the family. IIRC, the company moved to Las Vegas and briefly continued production of the 10X sniper scope.

The original company was very small (I was shocked when I entered the showroom attached to the "plant".) and I suspect that all production ended when the stock of parts was exhausted. I think the name got sold later and faded away.

 

[Richard Simmons]

Haven't found much info on my rifle however I did see on the CMP site that for competition one of the requirements are that the barrel cannot exceed .790" at the muzzle. As I noted in my first post mine measures .780" so it seems like it might have been used for some type of high power competition.

Also found some information that the way my barrel is factory marked was used on rifles before 1953 and specifically for rifles shipped to the military. Not much yet but I'm looking.

 

[rockquarry]

The family owned company completed the USMC contract. As noted just above, at some point Unertl ownership passed out of the family. IIRC, the company moved to Las Vegas and briefly continued production of the 10X sniper scope.

The original company was very small (I was shocked when I entered the showroom attached to the "plant".) and I suspect that all production ended when the stock of parts was exhausted. I think the name got sold later and faded away.

I visited the "new" Unertl booth at a SHOT Show in Las Vegas, though I don't recall the year - maybe mid-'90s. Their exhibit was quite modest and the 10X sniper scope was on display.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I have a Unertl 15x 2" Varminter with a 1" tube. I bought it from a former AMU member. He collects 40x rifles in 222 Remington and at last count had a few mor than 40! All with Unertl scopes. He also had a stack of loose Unertls that numbered in the hundreds! I got mine for $750 about 10 years ago, the street prices for that type and power scope were (only if complete with both cap and stops) $1250-1700 at that time. (2015) I was more than just a customer, and slightly less than family. My scope has Objective adjustments but are a pain to use.

My 15x is mounted on a 2005 Winchester 1885 in 38-55. The gun shot good before I installed that scope. You can't improve on perfection, but big clear glass and repeatable adjustments make attaining perfection a lot easier.

My first Unertl was an 8x Hunter 1.25" objective and 3/4" tube. Traded for in 1982 (traded a SMLE No 4 worth about $70 back then). I installed it on an early 700 Varminter in 223. The glass and adjustments were fine, but the scope was dim.

For long range scopes I use 56mm Objectives on Night Force scopes. I have both Benchrest (adjustable objective) and NFX (side focus) models. I find the BR scopes to be a little clearer, and the side focus easier for field use. I found the 56mm (2 1/4") has 17% more light gathering than 50-51mm (2") They can find pitch black steel plates in deep shadow at 1000 yard. My 15x Unertl doesn't do that as well and my M8 Leupold 40mm scopes in 10x, 24x & 36x were too dark in 1000 yard shadows, as were the Veri-X III 6.4-20 AO scopes I have on my longer distance varmint rifles. I have a Veri-X III ER (Extended Range) 8-25x 50mm that is good for 1000 yard shadows.

I also have a late 60s-early 70s Burris 8-32 AO scope. The adjustments are as tricky as Unertl's! Nightforce and Leupold adjustments are simple twist to distance. And all side focus adjustment are "Easy Peasy!"

Modern day prices for entry level are pretty much starting at $2500 up to $6000 for some. Vortex, sell some good scopes for less than half on long distance. BUT they don't see well into the shadows!

Ivan