MIM Parts. Are they poor quality?

[JoeS]

S&W sells to a wholesaler, who marks the gun up and sells it to a retailer, who also marks up. These guys would be happy to tell you that they and their employees deserve to make a living like anybody else. S&W provides a lifetime warranty and is happy to repair the tiniest flaws including RT shipping. That's worth a lot. All things considered, how low could their prices be? How much are you willing to spend? Figure a factory guy needs $50K to survive. Payroll taxes, workman's comp, and the rest add at least $25K to that. How much hand labor can you pay for, after markups?

In my experience if you offered to sell a $100 bill for $50 to most of the gun buying public, they would hem, haw and say "Well I dunno, that seems kinda high, could you take $30?"

 

[gizamo]

Actually, this has been a great thread. Lots of information getting exchanged and not the usual emotional stuff.

Well done....


giz

 

[jonnybigguns]

MIM Parts

I appreciate all the info, it's answered most of my questions, I didn't mean to stir the pot. I guess all in all Smith's are as close to the best you can get, now it's just a matter of making a decision, which one to buy.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

I didn't mean to stir the pot.

You didn't do anything wrong. The question is a good one and it's asked often.
Most of the members that hang out at revolver forums are old as salt, but luckily they sleep most of the day and miss topics like this one.

Do a little research before you buy. 99% of S&W guns are good guns. It depends what your after, a little carry gun, target shooting or killing Wooly Mammoths.

I promise one thing, once you buy your first gun, it won't be your last.
S&W revolvers are like potato chips, you can't have just one...

 

[DonD]

S&W sells to a wholesaler, who marks the gun up and sells it to a retailer, who also marks up. These guys would be happy to tell you that they and their employees deserve to make a living like anybody else. S&W provides a lifetime warranty and is happy to repair the tiniest flaws including RT shipping. That's worth a lot. All things considered, how low could their prices be? How much are you willing to spend? Figure a factory guy needs $50K to survive. Payroll taxes, workman's comp, and the rest add at least $25K to that. How much hand labor can you pay for, after markups?

Another good remark. I have limited experience with S&Ws, a Model 19 when I got out of college MANY years ago and now 4 Model 500s (own only two right now). When you consider that a garden variety (and that isn't intended as a slam by any means) Wilson Combat 1911 is about $2500, the $1400 S&W charges for what is really a ground breaking gun, the Model 500, that seems like a financial bargain to me.

I did send my Performance Center back for a very minor issue. I had not noticed any functional problems with it. They didn't explain what they found but they replaced the barrel and the cylinder, no cost and returned it no cost. It will take a lot to tarnish my view of S&W. Don

 

[scooter123]

No argument here!
The problems of machine parts is cost. Here in the states we are losing factory jobs daily. In my state, 1/2 the work force were at one time factory workers such as machine operators, engineers, machinists, tool & die, programers etc. We worked at firearm factories like Colt, Winchester, Remington, Ruger, Marlin & Stag arms. S&W is on the Connecticut border. The other factories were mostly defense contractors like Pratt & Whitney, Sikorsky aircraft and Electric boat (Submarine base).
Now, most factories are closed for good. Winchester gone, Ruger gone, Remington gone, Colt 75% closed, Pratt 75% closed etc. Where they go? China, India, England, Mexico and so on.

I know something about machining. If the people don't put the parts in clean fixtures, or if a chip is under the part, when the CNC machine does it's thing you now have a defective part. Tooling or machine temperature affects part sizing, the same as tool wear causes parts to be undercut or "oversized", even if coolant is used. Sure they have carbide tooling, but carbide wears too.

To avoid some of these sizing issues they built factories in 100% air conditioned machining areas to better control sizing and final product quality. Now here comes profitability. That's why they all leave, they can make parts cheaper else where. Now we are all jobless or soon to be.
MIM is the other method...

So we have a choice of a S&W made with MIM or closed if they continued making them like the good ole days. It's a tough pill to swallow. We are all losers in the end.

I couldn't have said it better. I've spent more that 25 years working for OEM automotive suppliers and know that results of "walmart" shopping first hand. People who make their purchase decisions based soley on price have killed American Manufacturing. What is really a tragic irony is those walmart shoppers are now losing their jobs because of their shopping habits.

I also get pi$$ed off at the constant trashing of American Manufacturers. When I was in high school, a friend had one of the first Toyota Celica's brought into the US, you could darn near follow him due to the trail of fasteners that constantly fell off that car. Fact is that new US made cars today are very well made.

As for MIM, being in Automotive I've seen new processes introduced over the years. One of those was the Powdered Metal connecting rods. At first there was a lot of derision ov this process, now they are the preferred rods for classes required the use of steel rods. Fact is these PM rods are stronger and last longer that the GM forged Pink rods that were the previous preference. Which is why GM uses these rods in the 505 RWHP LS-7 and the 556 hp engine in the Cadillac CTS-V. Quite simply, aint nothing better.

I also have to wonder what all those "Smith nuts" who trash MIM would say if it were announced that S&W was going to cease production of revolvers. If you don't believe that could happen, just go the the Colt website and try looking for a Python in their catalog. Many times when I hit the range I'll be the only person present shooting a wheelgun. The handwriting is on the wall folks, if we don't support the current production, and the new technology being introduced, one day S&W will decide that making revolvers isn't economically viable.

BTW, I've purchased 2 new S&W's in the past year and have only one complaint. That being that the full lug barrels now in fashion are too damned heavy for decent rapid fire DA shooting, I would greatly have preferred a half lug barrel on my new 610. Other than that they have been without flaw, either in operation or assembly. I will also say that the 2 piece barrel on my 620 produces a level of accuracy that isn't just surprizing, it's stunning. As hard as I try, I don't think I'll ever be able to shoot it's to it's full potential, however it is fun trying. Someday I may put a scope on the 620, which may seem odd on a 4 inch gun but it's darned near a rifle and the only thing that limits me is the sight radius and my aging eyes.

Finally, about The Lock. It's a real hot button issue and I understand the concerns of some. Frankly, it's a poor design in that it rotates in the same direction that recoil effects can cause. S&W should really look into redisigning it to rotate in the opposite direction. However, because of wrist issues, I cannot shoot a light weight revolver. So, all of my revolvers are 35 ounces or heavier. On these guns I really don't expect that Lock will ever be a problem. I've also found it very convenient when visiting family where there are children present. Fact is you can't close a revolver case on a gun that's been cable locked, however you can close a case on a locked gun and then use the cable lock on the case. Bottomline, the only problem I have with the lock is that it rotates in the wrong direction.

PS; note to S&W if your reading this. If you cannot reverse the direction of the lock then use a Titanium flag on the feather weights. I suspect that the cause of the self activation issues are purely a result of the inertia of that flag and reducing it's weight will reduce the tendancy to self activate.

 

[Marshall 357]

Thats a lot of info! Answered a lot of questions. Now,lets go out and get some new S&W and shoot the heck out of them and see who can kill theirs first!

 

[smithman]

Thats a lot of info! Answered a lot of questions. Now,lets go out and get some new S&W and shoot the heck out of them and see who can kill theirs first!

You guys do just that. I'll keep buying pre-locks.