Mod 19 with 125 grain bullets
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MichiganScott
Member
It would depend on what the original problem is.
Moonman
Member
Was your .357 problem FLAMECUTTING the TOP STRAP?
Titegroups
Member
Its not like flame cutting can hide. I think as long as you use mild loads and avoid hot burning powders like titegroup you should be fine. You know what to keep an eye on.
I have used 7.5grs of Unique in 38 cases in my 686 L frame
for a +P+ load but the maximum 38 special load from Alliant data is 6.4grs of Unique and it in a 2" snub nose gets around 938fps with a f100 primer and around 4.91 ft/lbs of recoil.
In 357 Mag brass the maximum Unique listed at 9.3 grs but
in my mags the patterns went to "****" when over 9.0 grs and best groups were with 8.0grs with a velosity of 1285 that duplicates the modern light mag loads on the shelf for buyers.
110 and 125 Jhp's in my 19-5 were ok for maybe a SD load but if kept around 1250fps they are a lot easier on the forcing cone and the larger size bullets like the 140gr XTX or larger with slower velositys at magnum velositys are actually easier on the gun. the 158 or old Speer160 is a great hunting load at around 1250fps, but I do have a 158 Lswc at 1320fps with 611 ft/lbs of energy for big furry things..............but do not shoot a lot of them.
for a +P+ load but the maximum 38 special load from Alliant data is 6.4grs of Unique and it in a 2" snub nose gets around 938fps with a f100 primer and around 4.91 ft/lbs of recoil.
In 357 Mag brass the maximum Unique listed at 9.3 grs but
in my mags the patterns went to "****" when over 9.0 grs and best groups were with 8.0grs with a velosity of 1285 that duplicates the modern light mag loads on the shelf for buyers.
110 and 125 Jhp's in my 19-5 were ok for maybe a SD load but if kept around 1250fps they are a lot easier on the forcing cone and the larger size bullets like the 140gr XTX or larger with slower velositys at magnum velositys are actually easier on the gun. the 158 or old Speer160 is a great hunting load at around 1250fps, but I do have a 158 Lswc at 1320fps with 611 ft/lbs of energy for big furry things..............but do not shoot a lot of them.
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Thanks for coming back to me, Ed.
The 19-6 (6" bbl) was my first wheel gun, and I cracked 2 forcing cones before I new better. A buddy of mine told me it did better with the 158 gr bullets. I do, however, have about 200 125 gr bullets laying around, and would like to use them up. Of course, after 2 barrels and almost $700 to the gunsmith, I am a bit 'gun shy' about using them.
I was hoping that I could use the 125 gr JHP's at a midrange 38 spl loading (about 1000 fps), for target use without danger. My Sierra reloading manual lists this as the 'accuracy load' for that bullet.
The 19-6 (6" bbl) was my first wheel gun, and I cracked 2 forcing cones before I new better. A buddy of mine told me it did better with the 158 gr bullets. I do, however, have about 200 125 gr bullets laying around, and would like to use them up. Of course, after 2 barrels and almost $700 to the gunsmith, I am a bit 'gun shy' about using them.
I was hoping that I could use the 125 gr JHP's at a midrange 38 spl loading (about 1000 fps), for target use without danger. My Sierra reloading manual lists this as the 'accuracy load' for that bullet.
I know that Alliant stated not to use blue Dot with 125 Jhp bullets due to things happening at "Freezing" temperatures................
I usually shoot at 40 degrees or warmer here in Nevada and with my 19-5 here is what I have found out in "MY" revolver.......
Unique 8.0grs 1285 cci primer poa 5@ .91 at 25 yards
Unique 8.5grs 1366 cci primer .........5@ 1.12
Unique 9.3grs max no good 4@ 1.68
W231 8.0grs (win 99%) ..........poa 5@ .85 at 25 yards
Imr 4227 18.5grs 1230fps.................. 5@ .91
Blue Dot 11grs 1260fps ....... poa ....5@ .71
Blue max 12.8grs before the warning.
The speer # 8 list an ungodly amount of Sr 4756 for the magnum but I found that only 11.0 grs will give my 6" a 1448 fps with a cci primer..........10.5grs 1337fps. I will try just 10 grs to see if I can get around 1250fps for a nice mellow all arond load. This powder works a lot better with the heavier bullets but thats another story...............
I usually shoot at 40 degrees or warmer here in Nevada and with my 19-5 here is what I have found out in "MY" revolver.......
Unique 8.0grs 1285 cci primer poa 5@ .91 at 25 yards
Unique 8.5grs 1366 cci primer .........5@ 1.12
Unique 9.3grs max no good 4@ 1.68
W231 8.0grs (win 99%) ..........poa 5@ .85 at 25 yards
Imr 4227 18.5grs 1230fps.................. 5@ .91
Blue Dot 11grs 1260fps ....... poa ....5@ .71
Blue max 12.8grs before the warning.
The speer # 8 list an ungodly amount of Sr 4756 for the magnum but I found that only 11.0 grs will give my 6" a 1448 fps with a cci primer..........10.5grs 1337fps. I will try just 10 grs to see if I can get around 1250fps for a nice mellow all arond load. This powder works a lot better with the heavier bullets but thats another story...............
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I wouldn't use them at all in your model 19. You could trade them for something else or keep them in case you get another .357. The factory no longer has replacement barrels so if you crack a third you'll either have to buy used or an aftermarket replacement.
Beans
Member
That was/is normal for the 125 gr .357 mag rounds. Back in the day when we were issued revolvers we were also issued Super Vel bullets that resulted in Flame Cutting of the top strap. Therefore we wern't allowed to practice with them.
Only bad thing about the mod 19 was that S&W had to cut off the bottom part of the barrel to let the parts work............
which made for a weak area and lots of hammering from "Super Sonic light bullets" would finally be the death of the barrel.
Hard to beleive a K frame is only a +P 38 in real life..........but that is what it is, if you want to be able to shoot it for 30 years or more.
I was one of the best feeling,balanced 6" tubes that I have used..........my 686 is a little on the heavy side.
which made for a weak area and lots of hammering from "Super Sonic light bullets" would finally be the death of the barrel.
Hard to beleive a K frame is only a +P 38 in real life..........but that is what it is, if you want to be able to shoot it for 30 years or more.
I was one of the best feeling,balanced 6" tubes that I have used..........my 686 is a little on the heavy side.
semperfi71
US Veteran
There has been a lot of reports here about the K-Frame .357s and forcing cone splits.
It appears that HIGH-VELOCITY/high end 110/125 grain loads will do this. A low velocity load of any proper bullet, including 110/125 grain should not be a problem.
It was/is also suspected that again, high end loads, of the ball powders like H110/W296 can "weaken" a forcing cone in the same manner that it causes flame-cutting.
Also it has been reported that a steady diet of lead bullets and a failure to keep the forcing cone clean of leading wil split the forcing cone.
I have heard of K-Frame .38 Specials that has split forcing cones and Colt "D" Frames (Detective Special, etc.) which also have split forcing cones.
There is anough evidence to me that I load all my "thin-walled-forcing-cone-guns" with lead bullets and in the case of magnums I load lead bullets and stay away from powders like H110/W296. Plus ALL of my handguns get a thorough cleaning of the forcing cone after shooting lead bullets.
I would "suspect" that the few 125 grain bullets you intend to shoot with an appropriate "non-magnum" powder will not hurt your K-Frame. But since you have been "bitten" twice and are concerned, why worry, trade off or throw away the bullets.
It appears that HIGH-VELOCITY/high end 110/125 grain loads will do this. A low velocity load of any proper bullet, including 110/125 grain should not be a problem.
It was/is also suspected that again, high end loads, of the ball powders like H110/W296 can "weaken" a forcing cone in the same manner that it causes flame-cutting.
Also it has been reported that a steady diet of lead bullets and a failure to keep the forcing cone clean of leading wil split the forcing cone.
I have heard of K-Frame .38 Specials that has split forcing cones and Colt "D" Frames (Detective Special, etc.) which also have split forcing cones.
There is anough evidence to me that I load all my "thin-walled-forcing-cone-guns" with lead bullets and in the case of magnums I load lead bullets and stay away from powders like H110/W296. Plus ALL of my handguns get a thorough cleaning of the forcing cone after shooting lead bullets.
I would "suspect" that the few 125 grain bullets you intend to shoot with an appropriate "non-magnum" powder will not hurt your K-Frame. But since you have been "bitten" twice and are concerned, why worry, trade off or throw away the bullets.
all357mag
Member
Try 125gr bullet over 8grs of Bullseye.
Steve C
Member
Back to your original question. The 125gr JHP's will work fine in the .38 spl on top of 6.0grs of Unique. I've loaded both the bulk Remington semi jacketed 125gr JHP's and the .38 Golden Sabers behind that load. The Golden Sabers leave a 4" M66 barrel at 1,053 fps or about 60 fps faster than Remington factory +P .38 Golden sabers.
The Golden Sabers are the only 125gr bullet I know that there are 2 versions, a .38 version and a .357 mag version. The .38 version has a wider HP. Any other bullet manufacturer uses the same 125 gr JHP for both the .357 and the .38. To my mind JHP's are for SD and hunting, why wast a good JHP on paper of for light target loads.
In the .38 spl the +P 125gr JHP's seem to be as effective as the 158gr LSWCHP +P if you compare Marshall/Sannow data and if you get 1,000 + fps at the muzzle you have enough velocity to ensure expansion even with old style JHP's.
The Golden Sabers are the only 125gr bullet I know that there are 2 versions, a .38 version and a .357 mag version. The .38 version has a wider HP. Any other bullet manufacturer uses the same 125 gr JHP for both the .357 and the .38. To my mind JHP's are for SD and hunting, why wast a good JHP on paper of for light target loads.
In the .38 spl the +P 125gr JHP's seem to be as effective as the 158gr LSWCHP +P if you compare Marshall/Sannow data and if you get 1,000 + fps at the muzzle you have enough velocity to ensure expansion even with old style JHP's.
If they're just for target practice and you are using .38 spl cases, I suggest that you consider backing away from the +P territory. According to Speer, their JHP bullet starting charge of Unique is 5.3 (917 fps). That should put a satisfactory hole in a paper target and won't put a hurtin' on your M19.
1,000fps + might work in a 4" barrel but testing out winchester and Reminton 125 SJHP bullets in my 38 snub nose ,fell short of these figures.
With the maximum loads of Reddot ,GreenDot and Unique for a 38 special, I was able to squeek into the 900 fps range with a f-100 primer.
Only one of these loads gave a pattern offhand at 15 yards that was under 6 inches............
I shoot one handload of +P 800-x at 952fps but the recoil of 5.56 ft/lbs is better in a K frame...... sure you can get a +P load out of Unique powder but the recoil is around 4.9 ft/lbs and I could not get any of these +P loads to group in my revolver.............the 135gr speer was a different story.
With the maximum loads of Reddot ,GreenDot and Unique for a 38 special, I was able to squeek into the 900 fps range with a f-100 primer.
Only one of these loads gave a pattern offhand at 15 yards that was under 6 inches............
I shoot one handload of +P 800-x at 952fps but the recoil of 5.56 ft/lbs is better in a K frame...... sure you can get a +P load out of Unique powder but the recoil is around 4.9 ft/lbs and I could not get any of these +P loads to group in my revolver.............the 135gr speer was a different story.
mauserargie
Member
do you consider safe to shoot a 158 grains lswc copper plated bullet over 14,2 grains of w 296 from a 686 4"?
Bullseye Smith
Member
All I can tell you is that your 19 will look like this with the use of factory 125gr bullets.
I would not recommend doing that. Bullseye makes for a poor magnum powder for one thing, and that load is certainly near or above full magnum pressures.
A mid-range load of Unique would give much lower pressure and provide less stress on the forcing cone.
Yes, in days of yore, I also split the forcing cone on a Model 19; in my case a 19-4 with 6" barrel.
I was using Blue Dot powder and the old Speer manual.
