Mod 70 Winchester in 9mm
- Thread starter Tonka
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Well that Model 70 is a rare one, is it a rifle or a carbine? RIA sold a carbine recently not sure what it went for but the estimate was $3,500 - 5,000.
Winchester Model 70 Bolt Action Carbine in 9mm
Winchester Model 70 Bolt Action Carbine in 9mm
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DWalt
Member
A Model 70 in 9x57mm Mauser would be a very unusual find. Several U. S. - made rifles from the pre-WWII period, including the Model 70's predecessor, the Model 54, were available chambered in 9x57mm Mauser, and I believe a few of the earlier Model 70s also were. These were made mainly for sale on the European market, and probably very few were sold on the U. S. market. And few of those which went to Europe in the pre-war years survived the war intact. If you have one, it would definitely require a full and complete authentication as being factory-original. Depending upon its condition and originality, it could bring some serious bucks, and would best be sold by one of the better gun auction houses to get the maximum return. There are lots of Winchester Model 70 collectors with deep pockets who would jump all over it, assuming it is the real McCoy.
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oger
Member
The link to the model 70 won't come up for me but if it is like new it's worth a lot more than $3500 to $5000. I paid $10,000 for a mint 7.65 Arg. Mauser carbine a while ago and thought I was lucky to get it.
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oger
Member
A rifle in 9mm is 24in a short rifle (carbine) is 20in.
Frank46
US Veteran
If I remember right they also chambered either the model 54 in 7.65 argentine and the model 70 in 7mm mauser. So that would indeed get a true model 70 collector's heart rate up a bit. Frank
DWalt
Member
There were numerous calibers in which the Model 70 was chambered in small quantities. Of course, the majority were chambered in .30-'06 and .270 Winchester, so most any other caliber will command a premium price of varying magnitude. Additionally, back in the day, Winchester could be persuaded to make special chamberings by customer request and at extra cost.
As in the case of many scarce guns, one must be very aware of the existence of forgeries or non-originality issues. Many Model 70s are found with replacement factory barrels, and it may require some detective work to ensure that a rifle in an unusual caliber is factory-original. I have four pre-war Model 70s (none in unusual calibers), but sadly none of them is in 100% factory original condition as a result of later minor modifications made by owners. All of mine are valuable, but not nearly as valuable as if they were in 100% factory-original condition.
i just looked up a fairly complete history about the Model 70 appearing in the 1974 edition of Gun Digest. In it is a very comprehensive table of styles, calibers, barrel lengths, and production dates. The Model 70 in 9x57mm Mauser is shown as being produced only in 1937, and only in the 24" barrel rifle version. Anything other than that would make its originality suspect, if not likely. A 1937 serial number would be probably no greater than 11573. Unfortunately, the article does not provide the number of Model 70s in that caliber produced.
As in the case of many scarce guns, one must be very aware of the existence of forgeries or non-originality issues. Many Model 70s are found with replacement factory barrels, and it may require some detective work to ensure that a rifle in an unusual caliber is factory-original. I have four pre-war Model 70s (none in unusual calibers), but sadly none of them is in 100% factory original condition as a result of later minor modifications made by owners. All of mine are valuable, but not nearly as valuable as if they were in 100% factory-original condition.
i just looked up a fairly complete history about the Model 70 appearing in the 1974 edition of Gun Digest. In it is a very comprehensive table of styles, calibers, barrel lengths, and production dates. The Model 70 in 9x57mm Mauser is shown as being produced only in 1937, and only in the 24" barrel rifle version. Anything other than that would make its originality suspect, if not likely. A 1937 serial number would be probably no greater than 11573. Unfortunately, the article does not provide the number of Model 70s in that caliber produced.
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I believe my m70 was made in 1941, sn# 420xx... I remember being told this 9mm was the most prized gun in a collection of 100 model 70's and was worth 3x what any other rifle/carbine in that colletion was worth and one of the things that made this 9mm so unique was it had it's picture in a hardback book showing it sn# and all(early 80's hardback) Help find Book ... yall got too much good info... someone knows
I'm kind of curious and I admit it's none of my business but I would like to know why the barrel length can't be measured to within at least 1/16. Larry
DWalt
Member
With that SN, and if it has a barrel shorter than 24", I have a very strong feeling that yours is not factory original in 9X57mm, and may not have nearly as much value as you expect. Some picture in some book will not change the facts. You might want to provide a few good pictures showing all significant details of the rifle especially all barrel stampings (including those under the stock - early Model 70s had a date stamp on the bottom of the barrel) and also the top of the receiver (early Model 70s did not have threaded holes for scope mounting on the rear receiver bridge). Someone here with much more knowledge of exotic early Model 70s than I may be able to shed more light on exactly what it is that you have.
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jframejoey
Member
9 Mauser....cool. 9mm would be even cooler for pest control and $200 tax stamp muffler on the muzzle end. Like a top end Destroyer carbine.
flintsghost
Member
The book that shows a picture of a 9x57 is Madis's Book on Winchesters. Back when I collected Model 70's, I heard of one selling at the Las Vegas collectors show for $35000 and that was around '75. But it may have been just a rumor. I had a 7x57 that was original and I got 2 grand for it about the same time. Now it would be worth 4 times that.
I have zero expertise in model 70 rifles. But, I am curious. The barrel marking is 9 M/M. Does that mean it is a 9mm pistol cartridge or is it the 9x57? Did they make the model 70 in pistol calibers?
tbgunner88
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flintsghost
Member
Model 54 barrels are known to have been used to make early model 70's. Madis's book indicates that there were a very few rifles made in 9 X57 and in 7.65 Argentine. I have never seen either but have heard as I mentioned before rumors of a 9x57 sold in Vegas. The pre-64 model 70 was one of the most phony'd rifles in history. The most notable was the use of 300 H&H barrels to phony up 300 Win Mags. Also the making of Carbines with 20" barrels which had significant increased value over their longer breathren. In both of those cases the front sight ramp is the major indicator. Carbines will always have milled on barrel front sight ramps integral with the barrel and 300 Win Mags being a 1963 only offering will not. Also barrel markings are different for both the 30 magnums. If someone came across a model 54 barrel, they could phoney up a model 70 that might fool an expert. If the records still exist, they are probably at the museum in Cody, Wyoming. I don't think it would be hard to find a pre-war receiver with proof marks that would line up with a model 54 barrel. That's another clue, proof marks on barrel and receiver are almost never out of line, but that's not a guarrantee. People who deal with guns in such rarified high values are pretty careful. Many seek authentication from experts. One indicator of a phoney is that the experts of note are usually NOT invited to see it.
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DWalt
Member
You can bet that any serious Model 70 collector would subject it to a very intensive and thorough anal exam before he would even consider making an offer. I doubt this one would pass - I can't know that for sure, but I don't see anything from the information that has been provided to make me confident in its authenticity and originality. Could be something to the possibility of the transplant of a Model 54 barrel to a later Model 70 action, as the barrels are pretty much identical, and it is known that there were some Model 54s chambered in 9x57mm. The date stamp on the barrel should tell a lot, along with the proof stamp alignment. A Model 54 barrel in 9x57mm on a 1941 action does not automatically make it a non-factory original assembly, as it is possible that the factory had an old Model 54 barrel in the parts bin at the same time someone wanted and ordered a Model 70 in 9x57mm - but that would have to be definitely verified. Just how, I do not know.
For the OP - barrel length is defined as the distance between the bolt face to the muzzle. Close the action, stick a cleaning rod down the barrel until it stops, mark it at the muzzle, and measure the rod from tip to the mark.
For the OP - barrel length is defined as the distance between the bolt face to the muzzle. Close the action, stick a cleaning rod down the barrel until it stops, mark it at the muzzle, and measure the rod from tip to the mark.
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