Model 15-3 reassembly problem

[Wolfiesden]

Ok, a couple weeks ago I broke down my 15-3 to completely clean it and convert it to frog lube. AFAIK its not been taken apart since the 70's when my dad last fired it.

I removed the side plate to access and treat the trigger action assembly. I thought I noted placement of all parts but apparently I missed something.

After re-assembling it, it appeared to cycle properly and very smoothly. However, when I got it to the range it appears something is not right and I am sure its something I did or failed to do during disassembly and reassembly.

On the bright side, I rectified the problem with the yoke sliding out. I thought it was odd that the cylinder yoke constantly would slide out. I discovered that the shorter screw for the side plate had been put in the forward hole and was too short to retain the yoke. By putting the longer screw there, the yoke stayed in place as I think it should have. So I fixed that problem, but caused another.

Prior to this cleaning I know it cycled properly as I had run about 150+ rds through it with zero misfires, even using really old ammo (70's vintage). But, now I am getting about 50% or higher FTF. I tried running rounds from a brand new box of ammo and some from a box from the 70's (WCs) which, until now had never had a misfire from that lot.

I noticed that the primer strikes on the FTF are not on-center, they are usually off to a side or frequently barely on the primer at all. I am thinking the cylinder is not indexing properly. When I cock the hammer the FTF rate seems higher than if I run it DA but that may just be the luck of the draw. I stopped trying to shoot it at the rage after 4 cylinder loads resulted in so many FTFs.

Anyone have ideas on what I should check here? I am new to the 15-3 as I just received it from my dad this year. Any help identifying the problem will be appreciated. Can supply photos of the action if needed for diagnosis.

 

[Cpo1944]

I`m just guessing ,but it could be the hammer block safety is not correctly placed. I`d disassemble it and double check the part placement and try it again.One other thing, is the main spring screw fully seated?

 

[Mike McLellan]

You have identified several symptoms that may, or may not, be related. We can spend all day guessing what might be the matter. To avoid the frustration and further damage, I suggest you take it to a gunsmith who has, at least, S&W armorer credentials.

 

[Wolfiesden]

I did not remove the main spring, if you mean the leaf spring inside the cavity between the grips.

Also, anyone have a decent sized PDF of the schematic and parts list? Obviously I will need that for proper reference. The PDF I found from S&W has no parts schematic.

 

[ken158]

This is what happens when guys take apart stuff without knowledge of how it is put back together. The yoke screw is specific because it is fitted. The hammer block could be put in wrong but doubtful as it would be hard to get the sideplate back on... maybe the mainspring screw is not tight, maybe the hammer is not set properly? As noted above, take it somewhere and get it checked.

 

[Wolfiesden]

You have identified several symptoms that may, or may not, be related. We can spend all day guessing what might be the matter. To avoid the frustration and further damage, I suggest you take it to a gunsmith who has, at least, S&W armorer credentials.

Thank you, and that is an option. But, if I send it to a smith to fix, I learn nothing. I still won't know what went wrong, and its likely it will happen again. I would like to learn from my mistakes and thus prevent making the same mistake again. The best way I know of doing that is to learn what went wrong and how to correct the error.

 

[gboling]

You need a copy of, The Smith & Wesson Revolver, A Shop Manual, by Jerry Kuhnhausen, before opening or shooting that puppy again. Even then the smart money would have a qualified S&W smith verify your finding before shooting it again.

The book is available in gun shops and on line either new or used.

 

[Wolfiesden]

This is what happens when guys take apart stuff without knowledge of how it is put back together. The yoke screw is specific because it is fitted. The hammer block could be put in wrong but doubtful as it would be hard to get the sideplate back on... maybe the mainspring screw is not tight, maybe the hammer is not set properly? As noted above, take it somewhere and get it checked.

This is what happens when guys take apart stuff without knowledge of how it is put back together.

I have had my Savage model 93, my Ruger 10/22, my Remington 1903a3, my Remington 700 and my 1939 Tula Mosin 91/30 completely apart (including the triggers and bolts) and have had no issues with those (though I had decent sized schematics for most which I lack for the 15-3). I have also broken down my Sig 226 EE and converted to frog lube and had no problems either with it either. So, I thought I had sufficient ability to deal with the 15-3.

The yoke screw is specific because it is fitted.

Yes, I found that the yoke screw is specific. I was not the one who disassembled it long ago and replaced the plate screws in the improper holes. After removing the screws, I noted the difference in lengths and corrected the yoke problem by using the proper plate screw in the forward hole. So I was clearly able to diagnose this problem and rectify it with no schematics.

Moving on...

The hammer block could be put in wrong but doubtful as it would be hard to get the sideplate back on... maybe the mainspring screw is not tight, maybe the hammer is not set properly?

I didn't completely disassemble the trigger action, never removed the hammer, did not remove the main spring nor its adjustment screw. I felt it wasn't prudent without proper schematics. The parts I did remove, I thought I had noted proper placement and order. Clearly I was mistaken.

It was a light disassembly, not a complete tear down. I only broke it down to a sufficient state as to be able to clean the action with a brush and to treat it with FL.

 

[H Richard]

Perhaps if you remove the side plate and take close up pictures we can identify what may be amiss. Did you by chance remove the hand from the trigger? The little hairpin spring inside keeps it under tension and will come out if the hand is removed. Since you did not remove the mainspring I doubt if you could have easily removed either the trigger or hammer.

 

[Wolfiesden]

You need a copy of, The Smith & Wesson Revolver, A Shop Manual, by Jerry Kuhnhausen, before opening or shooting that puppy again. Even then the smart money would have a qualified S&W smith verify your finding before shooting it again.

The book is available in gun shops and on line either new or used.

Thank you! I will seek it out. Thats the sort of info I was looking for.

 

[Wolfiesden]

Perhaps if you remove the side plate and take close up pictures we can identify what may be amiss. Did you by chance remove the hand from the trigger? The little hairpin spring inside keeps it under tension and will come out if the hand is removed. Since you did not remove the mainspring I doubt if you could have easily removed either the trigger or hammer.

Correct, neither the hammer nor trigger were removed.

I will take detailed photos with side plate removed tonight. I thought it would be needed eventually so I had planned to do so.

 

[hotrod150]

Go to Numrich's website (gunpartscorp.com), then search mfr's by letter and click smith & wesson, then scroll down to the revolvers until you get to the model 15. There are drawings along with parts lists.
Sometimes the hammer block gets bumped out of place when you're getting the sideplate into place. In my experience it either works or it doesn't, in fact the sideplate doesn't usually go on unless it's in place, but that might be the problem. You might double-check that the strain screw (in the grips front strap) for the mainspring is tight.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I would still take it to a gunsmith, unless you want to learn detail disassembly by yourself. The gun has apparently never been properly cleaned and reassembled since it was first taken apart by the fellow who swapped the round-headed screws, thus it may have had a lot of crud in it, or at least some. If you didn't remove the mainspring, you didn't remove much else. In attempting to clean the innards, you may have flushed some crud to the left side of the lockwork, and reattaching the sideplate may have caused one of several parts to bind. The FIRST step in diagnosing your present problem is to clean the gun AFTER removal of most or all of the parts. If you don't intend to do this, a qualified gunsmith should be employed to do so. Any other route is unlikely to solve your problem, and even if it does, will probably still leave you with a dirty gun.

P.S. Wear eye protection against the rebound slide spring, and use a plastic bag or extreme care to avoid losing the spring behind the bolt.

 

[dant]

Thats a good point as to you sending it out to ANY 'smith or shop, even the factory, to get it fixed" and you will not learn a thing..yes, good info above as to the "books" and I'd bet there may be something on YOUTUBE, heck everything else is on there........depending on "how" you removed the side plate, about the ONLY two things you could take out ( or in the case of ONE, it falls out), is the hammer block and the "hand" ( pawl) if you did pull it out or off enough for the spring to come "unhooked".....again, if some folks "pop" off the side plate, the hammer/trigger will shift after the bounce to remove the plate. I'm 'guessing , you pried the plate off, not wise thing to do.......
wish you were nearby, I'd walk you through "the how to", done it hundreds of times over the years, sometimes even at gun shows, when things are slow or I'm bored,,,MANY gunsmiths ( and shops ) will NOT show you "how", some think its "trade secrets" or whatever, but they just don't want to show how easy it really is to do, gotta justify what they charge you know...many shops we've seen will charge a "bench" charge' to check it out, tell you what it needs ,how long and how much...I KNOW some guys who fix things up in a matter of minutes, will wipe it off, hang it up or place on the pick up shelf, and tell the counter man to call you in a few days, or a week or so, again, make it seem like it was really BAD, or hard to do....guess I'm kinda like the guy on TV tells how all the magicians do some of their tricks..........
get the books, find a video, if nothing have a friend take off the side plate of their K frame, so you can "see & compare",,,years ago the NRA put out some gunsmith gun repair, takedown books, I recall by a guy named Woods, and they were/are a "step by step" with LOTS of pictures........

good luck, if you get really stuck send me an e-mail, and I will call you back !!

 

[Double-O-Dave]

Wolfiesden:

I applaud you for your efforts to learn how to service/diagnose/repair your S&W Model 15. Experience can be a harsh, but excellent teacher. Besides the references already provided (Numrich's schematics, "S&W Shop Manual", etc.), I would suggest another resource - Jerry Miculek is a gunsmith as well as being a master shooter. He makes a series of DVDs dealing with trigger jobs and disassembly of the S&W K/L/N frame revolvers that you may find useful. As some of the other members have advised, detailed photos may be helpful.

Best of luck,

Dave

 

[Wolfiesden]

depending on "how" you removed the side plate, about the ONLY two things you could take out ( or in the case of ONE, it falls out), is the hammer block and the "hand" ( pawl) if you did pull it out or off enough for the spring to come "unhooked".....again, if some folks "pop" off the side plate, the hammer/trigger will shift after the bounce to remove the plate. I'm 'guessing , you pried the plate off, not wise thing to do.......

The side plate was very stubborn to remove. I took a 1/4" wood dowel and used my belt sander to flatten one end to make a screwdriver like blade that would not harm the bluing. I used that to ease the rear end of the side plate up and out.

And yes, the "ONE" piece did fall out now that you mention it. Sorry, I forgot to mention that in the first post. Its location was a best guess on my part during reassembly. Would that be the culprit you think?

 

[Cpo1944]

You should NOT pry the side plate off . All you need to do is tap the grip frame with a screw driver handle or a mallet and it will pop right off.
Why don't you go on to you tube and do a search. You will find all you need to know right there. It is not hard stuff and once you see how it`s done you will be able to have a lot of fun with all those exquisite little parts that want to be polished and honed to mechanical perfection.

 

[Wolfiesden]

You should NOT pry the side plate off . All you need to do is tap the grip frame with a screw driver handle or a mallet and it will pop right off.
Why don't you go on to you tube and do a search. You will find all you need to know right there. It is not hard stuff and once you see how it`s done you will be able to have a lot of fun with all those exquisite little parts that want to be polished and honed to mechanical perfection.

The reason I didn't bang it around was that I was afraid of dislodging delicate trigger pieces as the plate came off. Clearly they were perfectly safe with the plate in place or the recoil would sham them up every round. But I was afraid that some of the pieces could begin to move as the plate begins to lift.

And using a pointed wood dowel would prevent any damage to the steel plate. Obviously the wood was softer and weaker and would break and give long before and damage to the pistol.

I am not one to bang on something without knowing what the result would be.

It seemed logical at the time.

Wolfiesden:

I applaud you for your efforts to learn how to service/diagnose/repair your S&W Model 15. Experience can be a harsh, but excellent teacher. Besides the references already provided (Numrich's schematics, "S&W Shop Manual", etc.), I would suggest another resource - Jerry Miculek is a gunsmith as well as being a master shooter. He makes a series of DVDs dealing with trigger jobs and disassembly of the S&W K/L/N frame revolvers that you may find useful. As some of the other members have advised, detailed photos may be helpful.

Best of luck,

Dave

That is my goal. Find out what it is I did wrong. Find out if I can correct it (maybe, maybe not). If I can correct it, do so. If not, I still need to know what I did wrong because I don't want to do it again. And simply saying I am never going to disassemble it to clean and maintain is foolish.

I liken this to taking apart dad's stereo when I was a kid. I, of course, broke it. But he insisted I fix it. Fix what I broke. So I learned and studied. It took 2 years to learn enough to fix it. Of course he had long since bought another one but it was the point. That lead to 15 years of being a broadcast engineer. Will this lead to gunsmithing career? Who knows, doubt it but I want to know I can do it if I need to.

I change the oil in my cars. I hand wash them in the driveway. I change their plugs. I rotate their tires. Dammit if I am going to own a firearm, I am going to know how to maintain it as well. As I said, I thought I had enough knowledge. I thought if I could change the oil on a car, I could change the oil on a motorcycle.

I made a mistake. I admitted I did so. And I really appreciate those of you offering useful information to help me identify what it was and if possible correct it.

 

[alde]

The book that was reccomended is a must and the DVD's are great. I also find that just looking to see how parts interact goes a long way.

I don't think you broke anything. It's just a matter of getting it together right. My first thought was the hammer block is not correctly placed on the pin on rebound slide. That might cause your symptoms. The hammer block needs to run in the slot on the side plate and be placed on the rebound slide pin. You need to do this without forcing the side plate on. I usually put slight pressure on the side plate while cocking the hammer and the hammer block finds it's way into the slot. It's all much easier to do than describe. Just take your time and don't use too much force on anything.

 

[Wolfiesden]

The book that was reccomended is a must and the DVD's are great. I also find that just looking to see how parts interact goes a long way.

I don't think you broke anything. It's just a matter of getting it together right. My first thought was the hammer block is not correctly placed on the pin on rebound slide. That might cause your symptoms. The hammer block needs to run in the slot on the side plate and be placed on the rebound slide pin. You need to do this without forcing the side plate on. I usually put slight pressure on the side plate while cocking the hammer and the hammer block finds it's way into the slot. It's all much easier to do than describe. Just take your time and don't use too much force on anything.

That is my thinking too. Its not broke. Its simply not assembled correctly. That was never really a fear.

From the various descriptions here and on youtube, I suspect its the hammer block (the piece that fell out) as I made a guess as to its correct placement. I will pop the plate off tonight (the proper way using tapping). Photograph it as it is now and then see if it was not properly placed.

No, I didn't force anything during reassembly. That I know better!

As I said, there was no binding during or after reassembly nor during shooting. So I suspect it may not be on the pin you describe but is in such a place as not to bind against anything.

Again, thank you for extremely useful info!