Model 15-3 reassembly problem

Wolfiesden said:
That is my thinking too. Its not broke. Its simply not assembled correctly. That was never really a fear.

From the various descriptions here and on youtube, I suspect its the hammer block (the piece that fell out) as I made a guess as to its correct placement. I will pop the plate off tonight (the proper way using tapping). Photograph it as it is now and then see if it was not properly placed.

No, I didn't force anything during reassembly. That I know better!

As I said, there was no binding during or after reassembly nor during shooting. So I suspect it may not be on the pin you describe but is in such a place as not to bind against anything.

Again, thank you for extremely useful info!
Click to expand...
I bet you get it back together with little problems. It sounds like you are on the right track. Please let us know how it goes or if you have any more questions.
 
Ok, here we go...

Thanks for the tapping tip with the screwdriver! Total freaking win! Way easier than the stupid dowel thing to get the side plate off.

So, here it is as first opened up:


A bit closer:


As you can see, I did get the hammer lock on properly on the pin. So it wasn't that.

So, here is what happened. I decided to grab this dawg by the tail and swing. I looked at some videos. Some of the referenced links yall gave and decided I wasn't going to let this thing beat me. Its not that complicated a mechanism. Finely crafted. Well designed. Yep. Not complicated.

So I totally took it apart. Cleaned all the parts and re-treated them with Frog Lube.

All except the cylinder index. Pictured here (Not sure thats the real name, bet its not, but its what I am going to call it for now until I can find out the real name):


I wasn't sure how to get the spring out without screwing it up. So I left it.

I analyzed each part, what it did and how it interacted with all the other parts. I couldn't find anything wrong with any of them. I reassembled it several times and it all looked like it was functioning properly. Until I turned it over. Thats when I noticed the cylinder index key was not operating the way "I" thought it should.

This little bugger right here:


Here is how it was operating:
  1. Pull the trigger
  2. As the trigger is pulled the cylinder index key would lower into the frame
  3. The cylinder dawg would extend to rotate the cylinder.
  4. The dawg would retract
  5. The hammer would go to full cock
  6. The sear would engage
  7. The hammer would fall
  8. The cylinder index would pop back out of the frame

That seems wrong. The index should come up to stop the cylinder prior to the sear engaging. Or so I thought. Seems logical anyway. If the cylinder doesn't key, that would explain the off center pin hits and some that barely made it to the primer.

So I tore it apart again. The part that I never removed seemed free, clean and moveable. After several disassemblies and reassamblies I figured out what was going on. It seems the spring for the thing has a slight bend in it. Of course I didn't know it wasn't supposed to have a bend so it "looked" ok.

Now bear in mind I never got it apart to this level before. So the only thing I can think of is maybe when I had it apart the first time the spring rotated somehow and was now making the index bind on something and not snap back into place to lock the cylinder at the proper place.

So I grabbed a dental pick and schooched the spring out if the hole in the frame. Wasn't an easy task but I didn't see any videos showing its proper removal so, again, I just flew by my pants. And it seemed to work.

Sure enough it had a slight bend to it. So I (feeling it was replaceable should I screw the pooch here), slid it over a couple torx screwdrivers I have and bent it back straight. Slowly, bit by bit. I figured the torx screwdrivers would make the spring hold shape so it wouldn't compress or go oval and simply bend where I wanted it to with minimal risk. Again, seat of the pants, and it appears to have paid off. It darn sure looks straight.

Well, after a bit of tinkering with the spring to straighten it, I reassembled the whole thing. A dry run of the trigger with the side plate off sure looked promising. A few extra dabs of liquid Frog lube on the bearing surfaces and on with the re-assembly.

Now it appears to operate as I think it should:
Here is how it was operating:
  1. Pull the trigger
  2. As the trigger is pulled the cylinder index key would lower into the frame
  3. The cylinder dawg would extend to rotate the cylinder.
  4. Prior to the cylinder turning a complete step the index key now pops up
  5. The cylinder now stops when the key hits the index slots in the cylinder.
  6. The hammer would go to full cock
  7. The sear would engage
  8. The hammer would fall

Now it seems more logical. And it appears to do it every time 100%. At least the several dozen times I pulled the trigger or cocked the hammer. The cylinder locks in place each time positively prior to hammer fall. Which is what "I" think it really should do.

I think I will dig up those better parts diagrams and get real names for these parts and the spring. Get a new one ordered I think.

So I guess the proof will be at the range. See if it indexes properly each time. But I will be paying very very close attention to it each shot for a while.

I guess some of you are laughing your tails off. But I did figure out what was wrong. At least I think so. Feel free to let me know if I went off track here. And if yall have any more good tips on tinkering with this 15-3, do tell. I am all ears!


So here is the casing evidence:


Notice all the off center strikes on the first row of spent casings.

Scary. Glad I stopped after a couple cylinder loads. This could have ended very poorly if one was just a little off from the barrel but close enough to actually fire.

So thanks for everyone pitching in here and giving me a hand and the incentive to figure this thing out rather than just having a gunsmith do it. Thanks to that I am considerably more attuned to the mechanicals of this thing. Can I repair everything? Certainly not. But at least I have enough knowledge to take the trigger assembly apart and proper clean and inspect it.

I still intend to seek out that book. Midway is out of stock on it but I can backorder it so I will do so next time I place an order.
 
Do not attempt to disassemble an Enfield Mk VI, or any other English break top revolver. The same goes for the Remington model 51 pistol, etc, etc. The Smith & Wesson hand ejector is a piece of cake. I go into a major studying mode BEFORE I try to take down any gun. Before is the key word here. Best of luck with your 15.
 
Cool. I'm glad you got it and posted back to let us know. Your going to love that revolver.:D
 
You got that figured out rather well. I do not know how one can have off center hammer nose strikes as you had without it being an issue with the cylinder stop/cylinder stop notch interface problem. I seriously doubt your initial sideplate removal caused the cylinder stop spring to malfunction, as you did not remove anything that could have created the problem. Now you can have a lot of shooting pleasure with a fine gun.
 
Good for you Wolfie, now you need to tackle honing and polishing those parts. Just don`t do what I did. A few weeks ago I disassembled a Colt 1903 hammerless and was completely stumped at how to reassemble it, but Thanks to forum member Bob Smalser`s fine tutorial I got it, but I never would have without his invaluable help.
Remember "A Man Needs To Know His Limitations"
Good Shooting, Jack
 
Nightowl said:
You got that figured out rather well. I do not know how one can have off center hammer nose strikes as you had without it being an issue with the cylinder stop/cylinder stop notch interface problem. I seriously doubt your initial sideplate removal caused the cylinder stop spring to malfunction, as you did not remove anything that could have created the problem. Now you can have a lot of shooting pleasure with a fine gun.
Click to expand...

The only thing I can think of is the spring might have been bent for decades. I was in there cleaning the hell out of it best I could without disassembling it and that meant using #9 and a toothbrush to aggressively scrub it clean. Then I used a trimmed acid brush to apply frog lube before heating it with a hair dryer to set the frog lube.

My guess is that I must have rotated the bent spring with one of the brushes. The spring was then pushing the key slightly sideways instead of straight up thus causing it to bind on the side of the trigger or the frame and not pop back up to index the cylinder.

jack oconnor said:
Good for you Wolfie, now you need to tackle honing and polishing those parts. Just don`t do what I did. A few weeks ago I disassembled a Colt 1903 hammerless and was completely stumped at how to reassemble it, but Thanks to forum member Bob Smalser`s fine tutorial I got it, but I never would have without his invaluable help.
Remember "A Man Needs To Know His Limitations"
Good Shooting, Jack
Click to expand...

Which is EXACTLY why I didn't hit it with a hammer to open the side plate, used gentile pressure to pop it open and didn't disassemble any of the action on the first cleaning go around.

It may have already had a trigger job done in the past. Dad was a competition shooter in the USAF. He already has the target grips on it. With the hammer cocked, this trigger is REAL light and smooth as a buffed baby's butt. Even in DA mode its smooth though a strong pull. I may look at a replacement trigger spring for a lighter DA pull.

I think I am going to measure the SA and DA modes using this:
DIY Trigger Pull Gauge - YouTube

This is not going to be an IDPA gun :) She will be a range shooter and something to keep in my nightstand with some critical defense rounds in her.
 
Wolfie, you done GOOD and great pictures by the way, and YES< if the the "cylinder stop" has a bent spring or any gunk , in the area, or TOO thick of a lube, it can and will "hang up" as you so well noted just what happens , when you work the action , pull the trigger slowly,you look CLOSE and the 'stop ' goes down,, into the wind slot, and a slight back and forth as it "rides" over the trigger
'nose'......you did not say in your comments but I will add, to access the "cylinder stop' better, you need to pull the trigger back , and out of the way, the dental pick is perfect for slipping the 'stop' out , off the cylinder stop pin, and careful NOT to "bend" the cylinder stop spring.
You did fine, later on , and with time, and confidence you will do better....
ONE note, I "see" in your picture you have the strain screw ( in front of the grip frame) backed out, and the mainspring is fairly "straight", not good, as this will affect the lock up , and the way the action works, needs to have the proper pressure.............;)
Good job Sir..................
 
dant said:
Wolfie, you done GOOD and great pictures by the way, and YES< if the the "cylinder stop" has a bent spring or any gunk , in the area, or TOO thick of a lube, it can and will "hang up" as you so well noted just what happens , when you work the action , pull the trigger slowly,you look CLOSE and the 'stop ' goes down,, into the wind slot, and a slight back and forth as it "rides" over the trigger
'nose'......you did not say in your comments but I will add, to access the "cylinder stop' better, you need to pull the trigger back , and out of the way, the dental pick is perfect for slipping the 'stop' out , off the cylinder stop pin, and careful NOT to "bend" the cylinder stop spring.
You did fine, later on , and with time, and confidence you will do better....
ONE note, I "see" in your picture you have the strain screw ( in front of the grip frame) backed out, and the mainspring is fairly "straight", not good, as this will affect the lock up , and the way the action works, needs to have the proper pressure.............;)
Good job Sir..................
Click to expand...

Thank you Dan. Really appreciate it. It feels good when you can figure out a problem and then figure out the solution yourself. Its kinda a pride thing, man and his machine.

And thank you for the graceful hints on proper names. :D

The main spring you see in the photo is as it was when I received the pistol. I never adjusted it as I didn't know what the proper adjustment was. After the last reassembly last night, I looked up some videos on adjusting it to get it in range. It now has a slight bow to it which seems to be what everyone recommends.

It appears it controls the pin strike force. As you can see in the ammo shot, the primer hits are not light, even with the main spring less tensioned than it probably should be. On the first range trip, I will be monitoring the primer hit depressions.
 
Wolfiesden said:
I guess some of you are laughing your tails off. But I did figure out what was wrong. At least I think so. Feel free to let me know if I went off track here. And if yall have any more good tips on tinkering with this 15-3, do tell. I am all ears!
Click to expand...

Been watching this thread from the peanut gallery, & don't think anyone is laughing at this point. Least of all, me.

Congrats on the analytical thinking / problem solving, your die hard perseverance, & for the great write up!

That said, I will join the others who have recommended "The Smith & Wesson Revolver, A Shop Manual, by Jerry Kuhnhausen". I never personally had the guts to pull the plate on any of my S&W's, before reading it. It is a great reference, even for a natural born technician - such as your self. ;=]

For the record, I make my living, self employed (21 years) as a electro-mechanical equipment field service tech. I am a big believer in "well written" service manuals, & when ever possible, keep them on hand for all models of equipment serviced.

Nice little pistola, BTW. I need a VG condition Mod 15, or Mod 67 badly - want to sell it?.
 
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GCF said:
Been watching this thread from the peanut gallery, & don't think anyone is laughing at this point. Least of all, me.
Click to expand...

Well, I figured my total lack of correct terms, whipping out a hardened dental pick and jumping in and taking it apart without complete instructions would have provided great delight to some.

GCF said:
Congrats on the analytical thinking / problem solving, your die hard perseverance, & for the great write up!
Click to expand...

I operate on the assumption that I was not the first to encounter this issue and I won't be the last. The next guy (or gal) now has the most vital thing at their disposal. Information. Its pointless to keep what I learned hidden. Maybe someone else can benefit from my failure and ultimate solution. Isn't that kinda the heart and soul of a forum like this? To share?

GCF said:
That said, I will join the others who have recommended "The Smith & Wesson Revolver, A Shop Manual, by Jerry Kuhnhausen". I never personally had the guts to pull the plate on any of my S&W's, before reading it. It is a great reference, even for a natural born technician - such as your self. ;=]

For the record, I make my living, self employed (21 years) as a electro-mechanical equipment field service tech. I am a big believer in "well written" service manuals, & when ever possible, keep them on hand for all models of equipment serviced.
Click to expand...

Its on backorder at midway already :)

GCF said:
Nice little pistola, BTW. I need a VG condition Mod 15, or Mod 67 badly - want to sell it?.
Click to expand...

Nope. It was dad's. I really love this thing and so does my 9yr old granddaughter. My Sig p226 9mm is a bit much for her and this has the weight and recoil she can be comfortable with. If she still likes it when she gets older, I will pass it on to her. I wouldn't dare take that away from her for any amount of money.
 
Thought I would pop in with a range report. I had a chance to fire it at the range this past weekend. Absolute dream. Again :)

It appears that the cylinder stop was indeed the culprit and straightening the spring made it all happy again. I ran a few rounds through slowly checking for proper cylinder indexing between trigger pulls. It was 100% TDC every time. SA, DA, didn't matter. I carefully checked the spent casings and every primer hit was spot on center. Ran about 40 rounds through with zero misfires.

So again, thank you everyone for chipping in with useful information and recommendations.
 
Good job. You do, you learn. I would forgo the Frog Lube for a very light coat of light machine oil (like Ballistol) on all moving surfaces. It's really amazing, when you see a brand new Smith come from the factory, to most tinkerers eyes, the gun looks dry. It's not. Very little oil goes a very long way in a revolver. Oil gets sluggish and collects dirt. More so with grease.
 
Congratulations! You actually reverse engineered the mechanism function. That is one way to figure out a problem. You had more guts than I did way back when I popped open a side plate the first time. I watched a video a couple times before I proceeded. NOW I open up every (used) S&W I acquire to make sure it is clean and lubed, and have progressed to a little minor stoning to smooth thing up a little. I previously taught myself how to do trigger jobs on 1911's, and now grind frames to fit beavertail safeties, etc.
 
Actually, those are the reasons I changed it over to Frog Lube. It does not attract dust and grime. I typically use the paste on the frames/receivers and bore. The liquid I apply to moving parts like bolt and actions.

I was extremely skeptical of it at first and did a hell of a lot of reading and looking before I jumped in. I have still not converted all my firearms but some I have. The first and the test case was my Savage Model 93 in 17HMR. A couple range trips showed me it was easy to clean and the action smooth as a baby's butt after removing the heavy grease Savage applied to the trigger and safety. 17hmr is not a dirty round, nowhere like a 22 so it really wasn't a true hard core test. But the kicker that sold me was a single range trip.

We went out for a whole day. We shot thousands of rounds through a multitude of rifles and handguns, mostly at the same 3 stations. There was a headwind coming over the berm and down the range right into our faces. Berm impacts constantly driving a fine white-gray dust into the air and back toward us.

That evening we started to pack up and thats when a friend noticed something completely oblivious to everyone else. Every gun, EVERY gun there had a fine white dust on it. Every one EXCEPT my Savage 93. It was virtually spotless. It was one of the first guns to come out as its one of my granddaughters' favorites and had never been returned to its case all day. You could draw your finger along a barrel and leave a mark in the dust on all the other guns there. But the Savage with frog lube was virtually spotless and looked like it has just been taken out of its case.

Then, upon closer inspection, you could see the same white dust on the scope glass where no frog lube was. The rifle was spotless but the glass had the same white dust. That told me it received the same dust clouds as everything else but it simply didn't stick to the frog lube. When I held up the two mags, I could see a fine white dust on one but not the other. The one with it was one I had purchased after converting the rifle to frog lube and had not been treated, it was a silver one, the factory one was blue and had been treated along with the rifle.

That sold me right there.

I have since converted my Sig 226, SW 15-3, and my Rem 700/223. They all remain virtually spotless and require little more than a wipe down with a microfiber towel and a pair of bore cloth pads. Even shooting old military surplus corrosive ammo through the 223, the bore is clean on the second pad. The third one comes off the jag spotless. Stuff simply doesn't stick to frog lube.
 
Not trying to convert anyone to frog lube, just my guns :)

Do your research, test it yourself, make your own mind up.

I have come to the realization that the kids hate Hoppies and love Frog lube. The smell and the feel. In fact, after cleaning with frog lube, you will notice your skin feels softer than it was before you cleaned your gun. But hey, thats not the reason to use it is it? Oh, and try it on the rollers on any sliding doors you got :)
 
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